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Alternative medicine kills again. Mom sentences to 3 years.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...er-son-dies-strep-throat-infection/888024001/

At least the boy was able to drink dandelion tea while he was dying.

3 years is not enough, if you ask me. I get that she says she is remorseful, but a message needs to be sent to all the other idiots who believe in alternative medicine.

Clearly this was a disastrously idiotic, retarded, moronic approach. I wouldn't, however, go as far as saying that everyone who believes in alternative medicine is an idiot. Some forms have been adopted in effect by conventional/mainstream medicine. They may bring some benefit to some patients. I would say that they are quite often "works in progress" and that we may lose something by just dismissing them as quackery. Clearly if someone is ignorantly playing/gambling with someone else's life - which is what happened here - that's potentially extremely dangerous or, as in this case, lethal. A way has to be found to bring such people round/on-side (so to speak) BEFORE these mistakes are made. Let's hope she learns something from this and is never in a position where it can be repeated.
 
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...er-son-dies-strep-throat-infection/888024001/

At least the boy was able to drink dandelion tea while he was dying.

3 years is not enough, if you ask me. I get that she says she is remorseful, but a message needs to be sent to all the other idiots who believe in alternative medicine.

Clearly this was a disastrously idiotic, retarded, moronic approach. I wouldn't, however, go as far as saying that everyone who believes in alternative medicine is an idiot. Some forms have been adopted in effect by conventional/mainstream medicine. They may bring some benefit to some patients. I would say that they are quite often "works in progress" and that we may lose something by just dismissing them as quackery. Clearly if someone is ignorantly playing/gambling with someone else's life - which is what happened here - that's potentially extremely dangerous or, as in this case, lethal. A way has to be found to bring such people round/on-side (so to speak) BEFORE these mistakes are made. Let's hope she learns something from this and is never in a position where it can be repeated.

I would definitely go as far as to say that anyone who believes in 'Alternative Medicine' is an idiot.

Alternative Medicine is either medicine that has not been shown to work; Or medicine that has been shown not to work. Either way, it is unacceptable and idiotic to use it to treat patients, other than in the context of properly designed trials to determine whether or not it works, and if it does, exactly how it is best and safest to apply it. Once such trials are done, IF it is shown to work, it's not 'Alternative Medicine' at all anymore - it's just medicine.

'Alternative Medicine' is another way of saying 'Shit that we have no reason to expect will work at all'. The two terms are literally synonymous. The difference is marketing spin - no mother would take some quack up on his offer if he said "Have you considered treating you child's illness with shit that we have no reason to expect will work at all?". It's not an attractive proposition - and it should remain unattractive when hidden behind the weasel words 'Alternative Medicine'. Unfortunately, people are easily misled, and so there's a LOT of money to be made peddling Snake Oil.
 
I wouldn't, however, go as far as saying that everyone who believes in alternative medicine is an idiot. Some forms have been adopted in effect by conventional/mainstream medicine. They may bring some benefit to some patients. I would say that they are quite often "works in progress" and that we may lose something by just dismissing them as quackery.

I disagree. Most of what goes under the umbrella of "alternative medicine" is, in fact, quackery. So if it walks like a duck...
 
Yes, some have become mainstream but didn't start out as such. This is why I don't think its helpful to just dismiss all of it. Many will go nowhere at all because they are at best nonsense, at worst dangerous. I don't find the term alternative particularly helpful either. Maybe its easier to not refer to them at all and just state the facts. I'm not sure that "holistic" has any understandable meaning in reference to what happened. But in any case it should be subject to investigation, analysis, testing, regulation.....like anything else is.
 
Some are offered currently on the NHS in the UK. https://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/complem...ages/complementary-alternative-medicines.aspx
They are regarded as having some value. Evidently some people derive some benefit from them. The point that I am making is that if we just say "no its all rubbish" we reduce the arsenal of options available and potentially - yes, to a completely unknown degree - future benefits that might be recruited to that arsenal.

"Mom kills son through profound ignorance and unbelievable stupidity" I would agree with.
 
Some are offered currently on the NHS in the UK. https://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/complem...ages/complementary-alternative-medicines.aspx
They are regarded as having some value. Evidently some people derive some benefit from them. The point that I am making is that if we just say "no its all rubbish" we reduce the arsenal of options available and potentially - yes, to a completely unknown degree - future benefits that might be recruited to that arsenal.

The NHS covers homeopathy? If so, that isn't really bolstering your argument. But again, you say "Evidently some people derive some benefit from them." I think what Bilby is saying, and what I would agree with, is that this isn't evident at all.

In any event, I do think it is helpful, since the vast majority are plain quackery. Like homeopathy.
 
Yes, and acupuncture, and a number of others. Some people will say that it helps. Others will say it makes no difference. Some could well say they feel worse. Of course, if people believe they will get better they may well do so, we know this. We also know about the dangers/risks associated with the Placebo effect (ie. potentially missing out on effective treatments in the meantime). The methods by which the relative benefit/harm/efficacy of any treatment or approach can be ascertained - that can be applied to anything no? This appears to indicate that a significant proportion of those surveyed felt better as a result. http://www.cityclinic.co.uk/articles/is-osteopathy-effective
If feeling better counts for anything - and I would say that it does then people can make their own minds up given that the degree to which it is regarded as quackery is well known. People have to decide if, on balance, they feel that there might be some benefit to them or none. Anything that is known to cause more damage than anything must be removed/rejected.
 
Some are offered currently on the NHS in the UK. https://www.nhs.uk/Livewell/complem...ages/complementary-alternative-medicines.aspx
They are regarded as having some value. Evidently some people derive some benefit from them.
Really? Where's the evidence that is required for a claim of 'evidently'?
The point that I am making is that if we just say "no its all rubbish" we reduce the arsenal of options available and potentially - yes, to a completely unknown degree - future benefits that might be recruited to that arsenal.

"Mom kills son through profound ignorance and unbelievable stupidity" I would agree with.
Nobody is saying that we should just say "no, it's all rubbish". I am saying "Test it first. Don't use it (except in trials) until it is proven to be safe and effective". If any of it is NOT rubbish, then its practitioners should be desperate to get those parts tested and shown to be safe and effective, as this would massively increase their business, and also be hugely helpful to society. That they are, instead, seeking to bypass testing and go straight to treating patients, with only anecdotes and testimonials to support their implausible claims, speaks volumes.

Lots of valueless things are 'regarded as having some value'. That tells us nothing, other than that not all of the people running the NHS are taking a rational and scientific stance, and that they are instead bowing to public opinion - which is hardly a surprise.

The only thing that counts as evidence of the effectiveness of a treatment is EVIDENCE, showing that the treatment is EFFECTIVE.

There is no excuse for using a treatment that has not been sufficiently well tested as to produce such evidence; and those who do (including but not limited to the NHS) should fucking stop - because it is unethical to continue.

This remains true no matter how popular or widespread these treatments might be.
 
I'd forgotten how heated this place gets but it shows passion. I do actually think for the most part it is nonsense - I stated that before - but I can't see how calling people idiots will do anything other than cause them to dig their heels in. Or is that the intention, to see everything come out, to confront? I find myself trying to find some middle ground, or at least something in common, rather than just dismiss. On a personal level I mean. Clearly it ought to be subject to the same rigour. The NHS do point out that it is complimentary or alternative so noone could accuse them of regarding it as part of their mainstream services in any way. I think it possible that we will see an increase in integrative medicine being used. I don't have a strong view on that one way or the other. Perhaps from the point of view of those attempting to administer or push com/alt treatments, they can't themselves see how they can be measured, if indeed they can. IF people feel that they benefit - which, yeah, is subjective - and IF people are not being screwed financially and IF people are not being made worse then it isn't ridiculous to say that it could have something to offer.
 
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I don't think people would be against trying at least the alternative medicine approach as a "last resort" if they still have that hope and will, after being told there's nothing more that could be done by conventional means.
 
I don't think people would be against trying at least the alternative medicine approach as a "last resort" if they still have that hope and will, after being told there's nothing more that could be done by conventional means.

Which really is the heart of the problem. If there is a potential cure for the fatal disease you have, the whole "Well, let's wait five years while this goes through a rigorous testing and approval process" idea isn't a valid one for you. You want the treatment and you want it now if there's even a chance of success. You probably don't even have a problem being a guinea pig for an untested treatment because it offers a slim chance of not dying over the no chance of not dying which is your alternative.

That opens up the door for a whole lot of scams from people who are willing to prey on the scared and vulnerable by offering fake hope in exchange for cash.
 
I don't think people would be against trying at least the alternative medicine approach as a "last resort" if they still have that hope and will, after being told there's nothing more that could be done by conventional means.

From what I've studied in respect to the psychology of people who value alternative approaches instead of or even along with actual medicine what they consider evidence for efficacy in use boils down to either placebo effect or mind over matter principle in action. Neither of these techniques works for the majority, not because alternative medicine is bunk but because it is not shown in trials to have the same wide spread positives as chemically developed medications and other tested procedures that ARE shown to work in the majority of cases where they are used.

It's not called alternative medicine because it is actually medicine but because people who got roped into it well beyond having an understanding of placebos and mind over matter got uncomfortable with words like hokum, bunk, bullshit, or phrases like 'just because it worked once in an outlier manner we cannot differentiate from when using a placebo doesn't show that it will work predictably multiple times under similar conditions".

As a last result, all evidence would then point to having tried at least some of the measured and tested findings out and they failed. Because they failed then all that could result in homeopathy or other alternatives are people either grasping at straws or else clinging to unreal expectations. Okay. Understandable as mot people don't want to die at any time let alone in many of the circumstances revolving around protracted illness or devastating injury and the inherent pain an suffering found in each of them.

However, keeping it around out of vanity or a lack of acceptance of what is going to happen so then they spend all their remaining energy and time on it instead of living as fully as they can with what they have left isn't positive.

The real dangers are similar or the same as what's in the first article posted on the thread though, because fools like that woman do what she did to other kids n also adults who can no longer speak or form enough coherence to make their own medical decisions. She even admitted to her own ignorance at the trial, which tells me she may have an idea of the danger that relying on homeopathy poses, only now her kid is dead.


Maybe that isn't so much the focus but it should be. Her kid is dead now. He won't ever know or feel or think or learn, or fall in love, or get jilted only to find a hobby or artform or element of reality that drives him to success in other ways, won't run or cry or laugh or get excited at seeing an old friend, one he had for 30 years, come back from travel. He doesn't have 40 years anymore. Because he no longer exists, all down to what his mother "thought' would help because "some people find solace, comfort or positive benefit" from either an untested to see if it works substance or ones that are shown to have no long running or wide range effect at all.

I'm glad I never bothered much with adults or kids in terms of belief and how it forms. People are too stupid to rely on, and I'm frankly tired of seeing/hearing that we need to be ever so careful around the stupid because they might feel bad for allowing themselves to be that stupid. That woman, along with nearly every adult in a developed country, has ready access to the right information along with ready access to the tools of reason and empathy in-built for most humans right into their dna.

A 3 year prison sentence for depraved heart murder, or manslaughter or whatever it went down as is too short. She should be up for how ever many years on average he would have had if she wasn't his mother but that someone with some proper thought and compassion would have been able to offer him.
 
Yes, some have become mainstream but didn't start out as such. This is why I don't think its helpful to just dismiss all of it. Many will go nowhere at all because they are at best nonsense, at worst dangerous. I don't find the term alternative particularly helpful either. Maybe its easier to not refer to them at all and just state the facts. I'm not sure that "holistic" has any understandable meaning in reference to what happened. But in any case it should be subject to investigation, analysis, testing, regulation.....like anything else is.

If you believe in something without any evidence, and it turns out that is one time where what you believe is true, you are a lucky idiot, but still an idiot.
Being and idiot is not about whether your ideas are correct, but about how you arrived at those conclusions.

By definition, if its "alternative", then there is no sound science to support it, despite it being very easy to show such evidence for any of these treatments that are effective.
That makes the odds that any one alternative treatment being valid extremely small, and not much more likely to benefit health than grabbing a random object and shoving it up your nose. Sure, you don't for certain its bogus, but you do know for certain that almost all such approaches are bogus and thus it is idiotic to believe in any one of them without sound evidence.
 
Yes, some have become mainstream but didn't start out as such. This is why I don't think its helpful to just dismiss all of it. Many will go nowhere at all because they are at best nonsense, at worst dangerous. I don't find the term alternative particularly helpful either. Maybe its easier to not refer to them at all and just state the facts. I'm not sure that "holistic" has any understandable meaning in reference to what happened. But in any case it should be subject to investigation, analysis, testing, regulation.....like anything else is.

If you believe in something without any evidence, and it turns out that is one time where what you believe is true, you are a lucky idiot, but still an idiot.
Being and idiot is not about whether your ideas are correct, but about how you arrived at those conclusions.

By definition, if its "alternative", then there is no sound science to support it, despite it being very easy to show such evidence for any of these treatments that are effective.
That makes the odds that any one alternative treatment being valid extremely small, and not much more likely to benefit health than grabbing a random object and shoving it up your nose. Sure, you don't for certain its bogus, but you do know for certain that almost all such approaches are bogus and thus it is idiotic to believe in any one of them without sound evidence.

^That.
 
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...er-son-dies-strep-throat-infection/888024001/

At least the boy was able to drink dandelion tea while he was dying.

3 years is not enough, if you ask me. I get that she says she is remorseful, but a message needs to be sent to all the other idiots who believe in alternative medicine.

I think 3 years because an infection in the throat is tricky.

Mostly the infections in this part of the body are caused by viruses, so no antibiotics will do any good.

The problem with the mother is not the "alternative treatment" but ignorance of knowing if the infection was viral or bacterial.

Anyway, dandelion tea is not for throat infections, in this part she was very wrong.

She tried to use alternative methods to help her son, the court declared that her case is negligence because after trying her methods, she saw the child was not feeling better and she should take him to a doctor. This makes sense.

You have no light in your room. You try to fix it changing the light bulb, it doesn't work, then you try the fuses or circuit breaker, if no good, then you call an electrician.

Our body has its own defenses, and doctors recommend waiting at least two to three days, because sometimes the body alone takes care of the infection. This case is very sad, it shouldn't happen, but even when the mother has been found guilty, the penalty has not been severe because she tried to help, however when she saw no recovery she should at least consult what was the problem with the child.
 
As for treating viruses, fortunately the human body's responses to them are easy to anticipate and control the symptoms associated with the body going to war against the invaders. Cold or flu, zyrtec and mucinex control body reactive symptoms pretty well. Other off the shelf meds like this or that pain reliever are also pretty much aimed at damping down effects the body has when it's fighting whatever has invaded. So now we don't need to throw 70 years of accrued science down the toilet just to feel better.
 
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