America, Fuck Yeah

[Trausti]

Burning EU and other flags can now bring German jail term

Germany has made public burning of the EU flag or that of another country punishable by up to three years in jail, classing it as a hate crime.

The vote in the Bundestag (parliament) on Thursday makes defiling foreign flags equal to the crime of defiling the German flag.

The same applies for the EU anthem, Beethoven's Ode to Joy theme.

The act of defiling the Union Flag in the UK is not a crime, but France has made desecration of the tricolour punishable by a fine of up to €7,500 (£6,600; $8,000) or six months in jail.

Spain, Italy and Greece also have laws banning desecration of the national flag.

It's bewildering to me that countries considered part of the "free world" could be so, well, not free. The very notion that a person could face government penalty for saying something or destroying their own property is incomprehensible to this American.

 

[laughing dog]

Then don't live in Germany or go to Germany and burn a flag.

I am sure there are plenty of Germans who find it incomprehensible the American obsession with gun rights.

 

[Trausti]

Then don't live in Germany or go to Germany and burn a flag.

I am sure there are plenty of Germans who find it incomprehensible the American obsession with gun rights.

Ah, LD comes out against free speech. Not surprised.

 

[Patooka]

It's bewildering to me that countries considered part of the "free world" could be so, well, not free. The very notion that a person could face government penalty for saying something or destroying their own property is incomprehensible to this American.

Not to this American, evidently.

President Donald Trump came out in favor of a fresh effort to challenge long-held precedent by the Supreme Court that would ban the burning of the American Flag. “All in for Senator Steve Daines as he proposes an Amendment for a strong BAN on burning our American Flag. A no brainer!” Trump wrote Saturday morning on Twitter.

Hate to break it to you, Trausti, but you live in a nation that is getting rid of the Magna Carta and trying real hard to make Lese Majeste a thing. I live in a country where you can headbutt a former Prime minister and get a slap on the wrist. Do that to Bill Clinton and tell me how it goes.

And even before Trump, an eighteen year old could drink a beer whilst fucking a hooker in front of a cop and scream "iss meine Scheiße" to the cop and not get arrested in Germany. So yes, Germany is a freer country than the states. Has been for the last couple of decades.

 

[bilby]

American school children are required to pledge allegiance to their nation and its flag.

That's some serious totalitarian dictatorship shit right there. Americans have no clue just how little freedom they have - a fact that unites them with the people of their President's favourite foreign nation, North Korea.

America? Fuck off!

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Burning EU and other flags can now bring German jail term

Germany has made public burning of the EU flag or that of another country punishable by up to three years in jail, classing it as a hate crime.

The vote in the Bundestag (parliament) on Thursday makes defiling foreign flags equal to the crime of defiling the German flag.

The same applies for the EU anthem, Beethoven's Ode to Joy theme.

The act of defiling the Union Flag in the UK is not a crime, but France has made desecration of the tricolour punishable by a fine of up to €7,500 (£6,600; $8,000) or six months in jail.

Spain, Italy and Greece also have laws banning desecration of the national flag.

It's bewildering to me that countries considered part of the "free world" could be so, well, not free. The very notion that a person could face government penalty for saying something or destroying their own property is incomprehensible to this American.

It's been the case in nearly all societies and times. America is a rare exception in that regard. Then again (except in part of Nevada; not sure if there are other places), people face government penalty for paying and getting paid for sex, even among consenting adults. In much of America, for smoking pot in open areas when they hurt no other person, or other activities that can be done freely in some other countries. Also, people face government punishment for sex with some relatives (even first cousins sometimes), regardless of actual social relations between them, etc.

And it seems some Americans can even face government penalty not for destroying their own property, but their own selves - or trying to https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/bs-md-suicide-criminal-charge-20180222-story.html (maybe he got out of it on appeal? I don't know)

Aren't those things puzzling too?

At any rate, overall yes, America seems very free comparatively speaking.

 

[laughing dog]

Then don't live in Germany or go to Germany and burn a flag.

I am sure there are plenty of Germans who find it incomprehensible the American obsession with gun rights.

Ah, LD comes out against free speech. Not surprised.

As usual, you are wrong.


The US's dedication to your version of "free speech" began in 1989 when the US Supreme Court ruled it was legal to burn the flag. Germany and other European countries have a much different history than the US. I am not surprised or dismayed that they are 30 year behind us.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Burning EU and other flags can now bring German jail term





It's bewildering to me that countries considered part of the "free world" could be so, well, not free. The very notion that a person could face government penalty for saying something or destroying their own property is incomprehensible to this American.

It's been the case in nearly all societies and times. America is a rare exception in that regard. Then again (except in part of Nevada; not sure if there are other places), people face government penalty for paying and getting paid for sex, even among consenting adults. In much of America, for smoking pot in open areas when they hurt no other person, or other activities that can be done freely in some other countries. Also, people face government punishment for sex with some relatives (even first cousins sometimes), regardless of actual social relations between them, etc.

And it seems some Americans can even face government penalty not for destroying their own property, but their own selves - or trying to https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/crime/bs-md-suicide-criminal-charge-20180222-story.html (maybe he got out of it on appeal? I don't know)

Aren't those things puzzling too?

At any rate, overall yes, America seems very free comparatively speaking.

For a while it was legal indoors in IIRC New Hampshire--sloppy lawmaking, not intentional.

 

[Bomb#20]

American school children are required to pledge allegiance to their nation and its flag.

That's some serious totalitarian dictatorship... Americans have no clue just how little freedom they have - a fact that unites them with the people of their President's favourite foreign nation, North Korea.

Your information about America is 77 years out of date.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette

 

[bilby]

American school children are required to pledge allegiance to their nation and its flag.

That's some serious totalitarian dictatorship... Americans have no clue just how little freedom they have - a fact that unites them with the people of their President's favourite foreign nation, North Korea.

Your information about America is 77 years out of date.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette

So no child is ever pressured into pledging allegiance? They all just spontaneously decide that it's something they want to do?

You may as well say that the BEF in 1914 was comprised entirely of men who actively wanted to participate in trench warfare. I mean, technically the law didn't compel any of them to join up.

Freedom isn't just about laws - yet another thing most Americans don't grasp about the entire concept.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

It's bewildering to me that countries considered part of the "free world" could be so, well, not free. The very notion that a person could face government penalty for saying something or destroying their own property is incomprehensible to this American.

Not to this American, evidently.

President Donald Trump came out in favor of a fresh effort to challenge long-held precedent by the Supreme Court that would ban the burning of the American Flag. “All in for Senator Steve Daines as he proposes an Amendment for a strong BAN on burning our American Flag. A no brainer!” Trump wrote Saturday morning on Twitter.

Hate to break it to you, Trausti, but you live in a nation that is getting rid of the Magna Carta and trying real hard to make Lese Majeste a thing. I live in a country where you can headbutt a former Prime minister and get a slap on the wrist. Do that to Bill Clinton and tell me how it goes.

And even before Trump, an eighteen year old could drink a beer whilst fucking a hooker in front of a cop and scream "iss meine Scheiße" to the cop and not get arrested in Germany. So yes, Germany is a freer country than the states. Has been for the last couple of decades.

Funny, I didn't see Trausti replying to this comment. Guess that's because they're full of shit.

 

[Metaphor]

Then don't live in Germany or go to Germany and burn a flag.

So if Germany tomorrow made homosexuality punishable by death, that would be your response?

You are correct to say if you don't like the rules of a country and those rules are a dealbreaker for you, you shouldn't go to that country expecting not to be subject to the rules.

For example, the United Arab Emirates is an immoral country with homophobic Sharia law applied to citizens and slaves guest workers and tourists. I would never go to the UAE, even as a temporary airside-only stop at an airport, and I think the Westerners that work or holiday there are idiots. But just because I would never go there myself doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't criticise UAE's rules.

 

[Metaphor]

American school children are required to pledge allegiance to their nation and its flag.

Not quite.

That's some serious totalitarian dictatorship shit right there. Americans have no clue just how little freedom they have - a fact that unites them with the people of their President's favourite foreign nation, North Korea.

America? Fuck off!

So, because America is 'totalitarian dictatorship', other countries working towards such a state should not be criticised?

 

[Metaphor]

So no child is ever pressured into pledging allegiance? They all just spontaneously decide that it's something they want to do?

No. I imagine there is a great deal of social pressure to do it. That isn't the same thing as saying it's required by law, because it isn't.

You may as well say that the BEF in 1914 was comprised entirely of men who actively wanted to participate in trench warfare. I mean, technically the law didn't compel any of them to join up.

Freedom isn't just about laws - yet another thing most Americans don't grasp about the entire concept.

Freedom definitely isn't only about laws--but societal pressure disapproving of a harmless action is less bad than societal pressure and the FORCE OF THE STATE forbidding it also.

 

[Trausti]

It's bewildering to me that countries considered part of the "free world" could be so, well, not free. The very notion that a person could face government penalty for saying something or destroying their own property is incomprehensible to this American.

Not to this American, evidently.

President Donald Trump came out in favor of a fresh effort to challenge long-held precedent by the Supreme Court that would ban the burning of the American Flag. “All in for Senator Steve Daines as he proposes an Amendment for a strong BAN on burning our American Flag. A no brainer!” Trump wrote Saturday morning on Twitter.

Hate to break it to you, Trausti, but you live in a nation that is getting rid of the Magna Carta and trying real hard to make Lese Majeste a thing. I live in a country where you can headbutt a former Prime minister and get a slap on the wrist. Do that to Bill Clinton and tell me how it goes.

And even before Trump, an eighteen year old could drink a beer whilst fucking a hooker in front of a cop and scream "iss meine Scheiße" to the cop and not get arrested in Germany. So yes, Germany is a freer country than the states. Has been for the last couple of decades.

Germany arrests its citizens for Facebook posts. That doesn't happen in the US. And the US is hardly getting rid of Magna Carta - no one is saying we do away with jury trials.

 

[laughing dog]

Then don't live in Germany or go to Germany and burn a flag.

So if Germany tomorrow made homosexuality punishable by death, that would be your response?

No, because there are magnitudes of difference between the two situations.

Furthermore, in the flag burning issue, it took the USA until 1989 to make it legal - which is not that long ago. We really have no moral superiority there.

 

[ideologyhunter]

no one is saying we do away with jury trials.

Bill Barr effectively said exactly that, this week. If you're a Trump ally, and if your criminality threatens Donald, you get a free pass out of jail.

 

[Trausti]

no one is saying we do away with jury trials.

Bill Barr effectively said exactly that, this week. If you're a Trump ally, and if your criminality threatens Donald, you get a free pass out of jail.

He did not say that. FFS, you TDS'ers are nuts.

 

[Metaphor]

No, because there are magnitudes of difference between the two situations.

The magnitude of the difference is the point. It is indeed far worse for a country to outlaw homosexuality than to outlaw flag-burning. You have no trouble recognising that criticism of the outlawing of homosexuality is warranted. You wouldn't dismiss it as a nothingburger as you did in your post. For the same reason, you ought not dismiss the criticism of the outlawing of flag-burning. The difference is only magnitude.

Furthermore, in the flag burning issue, it took the USA until 1989 to make it legal - which is not that long ago. We really have no moral superiority there.

This appears to me a strange value to hold. The fact that you live in a country that once had slavery does not mean you cannot criticise the slavery of other countries.

Indeed, even if America had flag-burning to be illegal right now does not somehow make criticism of Germany's flag-burning prohibition less valid (unless you yourself legislated to make flag-burning illegal in America).

 

[Bomb#20]

American school children are required to pledge allegiance to their nation and its flag.

That's some serious totalitarian dictatorship... Americans have no clue just how little freedom they have - a fact that unites them with the people of their President's favourite foreign nation, North Korea.

Your information about America is 77 years out of date.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette

So no child is ever pressured into pledging allegiance? They all just spontaneously decide that it's something they want to do?

Help me out here. Are you saying nobody in the Australian government ever pressures a citizen to do something even though the law doesn't require him to do it? Or are you saying Australia is a totalitarian dictatorship too?