American Democracy On Life Support

[SLD]

https://www.newyorker.com/news/lett...vzT70mUZSnY0DB1-rhoBYYgxutxuZKUqVSysejaUpr1tw

I think it was Ipetrich who made the comment that eventually we’ll just exhausted fighting the fascists and let them take over. This article discusses that point and interviews the authors of How Democracies Die. I read that book after Trump was elected. I think this will inevitably happen here. But it will be different. Democracy is dying in America because it has failed to deliver its promises. This is because our democratic process has been captured by an elite few who control it with their wealth. This in turn has been possible due to decades of very bad Supreme Court rulings that have favored wealth over people. The result has been decades of growing wealth inequality, and growing apathy among working class voters. They’re ripe for the picking by a fascist mindset like Trump.

Don’t get me wrong, the real coup will be too hard to recognize when it happens. It happens through voter suppression bills, and through a thousand small ways, all whilst giving lip service to protecting freedom. In outward form, we will appear democratic, but it will be a repressive regime for those of us who disagree.

 

[TV and credit cards]

https://www.newyorker.com/news/lett...vzT70mUZSnY0DB1-rhoBYYgxutxuZKUqVSysejaUpr1tw

I think it was Ipetrich who made the comment that eventually we’ll just exhausted fighting the fascists and let them take over. This article discusses that point and interviews the authors of How Democracies Die. I read that book after Trump was elected. I think this will inevitably happen here. But it will be different. Democracy is dying in America because it has failed to deliver its promises. This is because our democratic process has been captured by an elite few who control it with their wealth. This in turn has been possible due to decades of very bad Supreme Court rulings that have favored wealth over people. The result has been decades of growing wealth inequality, and growing apathy among working class voters. They’re ripe for the picking by a fascist mindset like Trump.

Don’t get me wrong, the real coup will be too hard to recognize when it happens. It happens through voter suppression bills, and through a thousand small ways, all whilst giving lip service to protecting freedom. In outward form, we will appear democratic, but it will be a repressive regime for those of us who disagree.

Who?

I agree with your closing statement. And long after it happens, that thirty-some percent who would faithfully follow Trump or another Trump-like creature will not even know they have lost their country as they will continue to measure politics in wins and losses. They've beaten the libbies will be their view for years to come.

As for the Republican politicians themselves, I would hope a few more Murkowski/Romney types would stand up as the situation grows more dire. But I'm not holding my breath. I will always keep in mind, Sandy Hook is the standard of decency by which all Republicans should be judged. Besides, it looks like we are moving into a "fear of the mob" phase where it is not just a matter of worrying about being primaried but of their safety and that of their family.

Joe Biden is doing a fair job of minimizing Trump and the inflamed rhetoric. Actually, were it not for Twitter banning Trump, I think this might be a total failure.

 

[Harry Bosch]

https://www.newyorker.com/news/lett...vzT70mUZSnY0DB1-rhoBYYgxutxuZKUqVSysejaUpr1tw

I think it was Ipetrich who made the comment that eventually we’ll just exhausted fighting the fascists and let them take over. This article discusses that point and interviews the authors of How Democracies Die. I read that book after Trump was elected. I think this will inevitably happen here. But it will be different. Democracy is dying in America because it has failed to deliver its promises. This is because our democratic process has been captured by an elite few who control it with their wealth. This in turn has been possible due to decades of very bad Supreme Court rulings that have favored wealth over people. The result has been decades of growing wealth inequality, and growing apathy among working class voters. They’re ripe for the picking by a fascist mindset like Trump.

Don’t get me wrong, the real coup will be too hard to recognize when it happens. It happens through voter suppression bills, and through a thousand small ways, all whilst giving lip service to protecting freedom. In outward form, we will appear democratic, but it will be a repressive regime for those of us who disagree.

I agree that we are in dangerous times. I put the odds at 50-50 that Trump will win in 24. And if elected, I expect him to put people in power who won't let him lose an election again. However, I see no need to try to find a scapegoat here: the rich. The people voting in Trump and not wanting to follow the constitution are White middle class to lower class (non college educated people). There's far more wealth on the progressive side.

 

[fromderinside]

Are you nuts?

One can't fathom how something is going to be done then detail how it's going to be done?

We have no idea so lets target this as the one that will come to get us.

When care and insight are required one tries to induce fear. Way to F'n go.

Now is the time to use minds and pathfinding to staunch the flow of anger. Recruit some leaders to stand up as examples every time the fearful cave in would be my first option.

Its not calm down time. It's how how reverse the process of fear time.

I'm never for pointing fingers. It's all about setting examples.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Are you nuts?

One can't fathom how something is going to be done then details how it's going to be done?

We have no idea so lets target this as the one that will come to get us.

When care and insight are required one tries to induce fear. Way to F'n go.

Now is the time to use minds and pathfinding to staunch the flow of anger. Recruit some leaders to stand up as examples every time the fearful cave in would be my first option.

Its not calm down time. It's how how reverse the process of fear time.

Sorry, I'm not following your post. Are you replying to me or to the thread title? I agree that the Trump voters are angry (if that is what you are trying to say). But I don't see them as ever caving in.

 

[SLD]

https://www.newyorker.com/news/lett...vzT70mUZSnY0DB1-rhoBYYgxutxuZKUqVSysejaUpr1tw

I think it was Ipetrich who made the comment that eventually we’ll just exhausted fighting the fascists and let them take over. This article discusses that point and interviews the authors of How Democracies Die. I read that book after Trump was elected. I think this will inevitably happen here. But it will be different. Democracy is dying in America because it has failed to deliver its promises. This is because our democratic process has been captured by an elite few who control it with their wealth. This in turn has been possible due to decades of very bad Supreme Court rulings that have favored wealth over people. The result has been decades of growing wealth inequality, and growing apathy among working class voters. They’re ripe for the picking by a fascist mindset like Trump.

Don’t get me wrong, the real coup will be too hard to recognize when it happens. It happens through voter suppression bills, and through a thousand small ways, all whilst giving lip service to protecting freedom. In outward form, we will appear democratic, but it will be a repressive regime for those of us who disagree.

I agree that we are in dangerous times. I put the odds at 50-50 that Trump will win in 24. And if elected, I expect him to put people in power who won't let him lose an election again. However, I see no need to try to find a scapegoat here: the rich. The people voting in Trump and not wanting to follow the constitution are White middle class to lower class (non college educated people). There's far more wealth on the progressive side.

But why are lower class whites supporting Trump? Simple. Because the Uber wealthy have controlled the political outcomes for too long resulting in larger and larger wealth inequality. Democracy no longer works for them. It represents only the interest of an elite few. That’s what makes them ripe for the picking by someone like Trump. This has been going on since the election of Ronald Reagan.

 

[Harry Bosch]

https://www.newyorker.com/news/lett...vzT70mUZSnY0DB1-rhoBYYgxutxuZKUqVSysejaUpr1tw

I think it was Ipetrich who made the comment that eventually we’ll just exhausted fighting the fascists and let them take over. This article discusses that point and interviews the authors of How Democracies Die. I read that book after Trump was elected. I think this will inevitably happen here. But it will be different. Democracy is dying in America because it has failed to deliver its promises. This is because our democratic process has been captured by an elite few who control it with their wealth. This in turn has been possible due to decades of very bad Supreme Court rulings that have favored wealth over people. The result has been decades of growing wealth inequality, and growing apathy among working class voters. They’re ripe for the picking by a fascist mindset like Trump.

Don’t get me wrong, the real coup will be too hard to recognize when it happens. It happens through voter suppression bills, and through a thousand small ways, all whilst giving lip service to protecting freedom. In outward form, we will appear democratic, but it will be a repressive regime for those of us who disagree.

I agree that we are in dangerous times. I put the odds at 50-50 that Trump will win in 24. And if elected, I expect him to put people in power who won't let him lose an election again. However, I see no need to try to find a scapegoat here: the rich. The people voting in Trump and not wanting to follow the constitution are White middle class to lower class (non college educated people). There's far more wealth on the progressive side.

But why are lower class whites supporting Trump? Simple. Because the Uber wealthy have controlled the political outcomes for too long resulting in larger and larger wealth inequality. Democracy no longer works for them. It represents only the interest of an elite few. That’s what makes them ripe for the picking by someone like Trump. This has been going on since the election of Ronald Reagan.

I don't agree. For one, the working class white vote is just one group that is voting for Trump. But I think that they are far more motivated by social issues: abortion, gay marriage, religion and guns. They are trying to save the country from the godless socialists who want to take their guns. The left is not going to get this crowd back, nor should we try. The good news here is that their side is falling... But they are still a formidable voting block.

 

[southernhybrid]

But why are lower class whites supporting Trump? Simple. Because the Uber wealthy have controlled the political outcomes for too long resulting in larger and larger wealth inequality. Democracy no longer works for them. It represents only the interest of an elite few. That’s what makes them ripe for the picking by someone like Trump. This has been going on since the election of Ronald Reagan.

I don't agree. For one, the working class white vote is just one group that is voting for Trump. But I think that they are far more motivated by social issues: abortion, gay marriage, religion and guns. They are trying to save the country from the godless socialists who want to take their guns. The left is not going to get this crowd back, nor should we try. The good news here is that their side is falling... But they are still a formidable voting block.

The above is certainly true, but a good amount of the wealthy also supported Trump due to his successful efforts at lowering their taxes. I personally know a few of them. They are just as difficult to reason with as someone with very little education. Having a lot of academic letters after one's name doesn't necessarily equate with good sense or superior intelligence. I've known some brilliant high school grads that had far more sense and intelligence than some with advanced degrees. Sadly, too many wealthy people only care about how much money they can accrue and how little taxes they must pay.

Voter apathy is a huge problem in my state and probably in some other states. I've known people who voted for the first time in 2020 and some of them were well into middle age. Trump is what motivated them to finally vote in hopes of defeating him. That is probably how our two Democratic Senators in Georgia were able to defeat the Republican candidates.

Will this continue? I sure hope so but as you all know, states like mine are doing everything they can get away with to make it more difficult for urban minorities, who tend to vote for Democrats, to vote. So, those who live in such areas must be very motivated to vote because they may either be waiting in lines for hours or they will need to request an absentee ballot early enough for it to be valid. And, voter apathy is much worse during the midterms here in Georgia.

I can only hope that Stacey is able to do her magic and motivate people to vote. People like her may be our only hope. The Republicans are so afraid of her, that they've been doing everything possible demonize her, so her job will be more difficult than it was last time.

 

[SLD]

But why are lower class whites supporting Trump? Simple. Because the Uber wealthy have controlled the political outcomes for too long resulting in larger and larger wealth inequality. Democracy no longer works for them. It represents only the interest of an elite few. That’s what makes them ripe for the picking by someone like Trump. This has been going on since the election of Ronald Reagan.

I don't agree. For one, the working class white vote is just one group that is voting for Trump. But I think that they are far more motivated by social issues: abortion, gay marriage, religion and guns. They are trying to save the country from the godless socialists who want to take their guns. The left is not going to get this crowd back, nor should we try. The good news here is that their side is falling... But they are still a formidable voting block.

They didn’t vote for Romney or McCain who also favored such social issues. They came out in drove for trump because he wasn’t an establishment Republican. Trump was a way saying FU to the establishment of both parties who have failed to represent their interests for decades. If the Democratic system we have supported them and their rights they may have supported conservatives, but they wouldn’t have supported someone who is trying to destroy our democracy. That’s the point.

 

[southernhybrid]

Imo, a good percentage of Trump supporters felt like liberal elites looked down on them so by voting for Trump they were "owning the libs". It certainly didn't help when Hillary called them deplorables. Sure, some of them probably are deplorable people but we would do better if we tried to understand where these people were coming from instead of judging them so harshly. As the words to an old song go...."when you ain't got nothing, you got nothing to lose". I assume that's why I still see Trump signs in front of little run down homes. I guess they feel like they have nothing to lose by voting for someone like Trump.

Some Trump supporters were very religious people who are easily persuaded by a charismatic cult leader. While I don't find anything charismatic about Trump, apparently many people do. I think many if not most of those who attacked the capital on Jan. 6th, honestly believed they were doing what their leader wanted them to do. How they can still support him is beyond me, but I guess when one is being manipulated, it's hard to release oneself from the grip of the leader.

 

[ideologyhunter]

America at mid-century will be past the Caucasian hegemony. Smart Trumpies know it. It makes them apeshit. They will only get crazier in this decade. They follow Malcolm X in one particular: By Any Means Necessary. Voting rights? Fuck 'em. Scream election fraud, without a case you can present in open court? Sure. Break into the Capitol, look for Nancy to wring her neck and Mike P. to lynch him, and beat a cop to death while you're at it? Well, how is that different from patriotic tourists on a tour of the building?

 

[lpetrich]

Opinion | A frantic warning from 100 leading experts: Our democracy is in grave danger - The Washington Post

What’s striking is that the statement is signed by scholars who specialize in democratic breakdown, such as Pippa Norris, Daniel Ziblatt and Steven Levitsky. Other well-known names include Francis Fukuyama and Jacob Hacker.

“We wanted to create a strong statement from a wide range of scholars, including many who have studied democratic backsliding, to make it clear that democracy in America is genuinely under threat,” Lee Drutman, senior fellow at New America and a leading organizer of the letter, told me.

“The playbook that the Republican Party is executing at the state and national levels is very much consistent with actions taken by illiberal, anti-democratic, anti-pluralist parties in other democracies that have slipped away from free and fair elections,” Drutman continued.

Noting
Statement of Concern

When democracy breaks down, it typically takes many years, often decades, to reverse the downward spiral. In the process, violence and corruption typically flourish, and talent and wealth flee to more stable countries, undermining national prosperity. It is not just our venerated institutions and norms that are at risk—it is our future national standing, strength, and ability to compete globally.

Statutory changes in large key electoral battleground states are dangerously politicizing the process of electoral administration, with Republican-controlled legislatures giving themselves the power to override electoral outcomes on unproven allegations should Democrats win more votes. They are seeking to restrict access to the ballot, the most basic principle underlying the right of all adult American citizens to participate in our democracy. They are also putting in place criminal sentences and fines meant to intimidate and scare away poll workers and nonpartisan administrators. State legislatures have advanced initiatives that curtail voting methods now preferred by Democratic-leaning constituencies, such as early voting and mail voting. Republican lawmakers have openly talked about ensuring the “purity” and “quality” of the vote, echoing arguments widely used across the Jim Crow South as reasons for restricting the Black vote.

....
It is always far better for major democracy reforms to be bipartisan, to give change the broadest possible legitimacy. However, in the current hyper-polarized political context such broad bipartisan support is sadly lacking. Elected Republican leaders have had numerous opportunities to repudiate Trump and his “Stop the Steal” crusade, which led to the violent attack on the U.S. Capitol on January 6. Each time, they have sidestepped the truth and enabled the lie to spread.

We urge members of Congress to do whatever is necessary—including suspending the filibuster—in order to pass national voting and election administration standards that both guarantee the vote to all Americans equally, and prevent state legislatures from manipulating the rules in order to manufacture the result they want. Our democracy is fundamentally at stake. History will judge what we do at this moment.

 

[Swammerdami]

I quote Ipetrich's post in its entirety just to emphasize how grave the threats are. In addition to America's racism, and malice by the Republicans and Kremlin; Facebook and other social media constitute the third prong of imminent danger. (I've previously linked to two Netflix documentaries arguing that profit-motivated social media tends to destroy democracy.)

Opinion | A frantic warning from 100 leading experts: Our democracy is in grave danger - The Washington Post

What’s striking is that the statement is signed by scholars who specialize in democratic breakdown, such as Pippa Norris, Daniel Ziblatt and Steven Levitsky. Other well-known names include Francis Fukuyama and Jacob Hacker.

“We wanted to create a strong statement from a wide range of scholars, including many who have studied democratic backsliding, to make it clear that democracy in America is genuinely under threat,” Lee Drutman, senior fellow at New America and a leading organizer of the letter, told me.

“The playbook that the Republican Party is executing at the state and national levels is very much consistent with actions taken by illiberal, anti-democratic, anti-pluralist parties in other democracies that have slipped away from free and fair elections,” Drutman continued.

Noting
Statement of Concern

When democracy breaks down, it typically takes many years, often decades, to reverse the downward spiral. In the process, violence and corruption typically flourish, and talent and wealth flee to more stable countries, undermining national prosperity. It is not just our venerated institutions and norms that are at risk—it is our future national standing, strength, and ability to compete globally.

Statutory changes in large key electoral battleground states are dangerously politicizing the process of electoral administration, with Republican-controlled legislatures giving themselves the power to override electoral outcomes on unproven allegations should Democrats win more votes. They are seeking to restrict access to the ballot, the most basic principle underlying the right of all adult American citizens to participate in our democracy. They are also putting in place criminal sentences and fines meant to intimidate and scare away poll workers and nonpartisan administrators. State legislatures have advanced initiatives that curtail voting methods now preferred by Democratic-leaning constituencies, such as early voting and mail voting. Republican lawmakers have openly talked about ensuring the “purity” and “quality” of the vote, echoing arguments widely used across the Jim Crow South as reasons for restricting the Black vote.

....
It is always far better for major democracy reforms to be bipartisan, to give change the broadest possible legitimacy. However, in the current hyper-polarized political context such broad bipartisan support is sadly lacking. Elected Republican leaders have had numerous opportunities to repudiate Trump and his “Stop the Steal” crusade, which led to the violent attack on the U.S. Capitol on January 6. Each time, they have sidestepped the truth and enabled the lie to spread.

We urge members of Congress to do whatever is necessary—including suspending the filibuster—in order to pass national voting and election administration standards that both guarantee the vote to all Americans equally, and prevent state legislatures from manipulating the rules in order to manufacture the result they want. Our democracy is fundamentally at stake. History will judge what we do at this moment.

 

[Elixir]

The party of lies, racism and insurrection is making great headway right now. Ruling as a minority, gaining idiots and suppressing freedom while whining about being "canceled"... it's pretty amazing actually.

 

[barbos]

Voters vote for them, that's democracy, right?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Voters vote for them, that's democracy, right?

In the short run, yes. But what do you think will happen if Trump wins again in 24? We may lose the right to vote after that.

 

[Swammerdami]

Voters vote for them, that's democracy, right?

Not really. If "the people," i.e. a majority of voters, ruled, Hillary Clinton would have become the President, not Donald Trump.

In the 2020 House elections. the Ds got almost 5 million more votes than the Rs but barely squeaked out a majority of seats. This wasn't an anomaly — for many years the Ds have won fewer house seats than their vote totals would imply; this is due to Republican gerrymandering. For example in 2012 the Ds got about 1.4 million more votes but lost the House with only 201 seats to the Rs 234. In that year, the Ds won the total popular vote for the House in Pennsylvania but got only 5 seats to the Rs 13. The D's won North Carolina by an even larger margin but got only 4 seats to the Rs 9. Et cetera. Judges have ruled that some of these flaws were due to deliberate partisan gerrymandering but Rs haven't changed their ways or even obeyed court orders.

And those statistics about the actual votes cast ignore that many likely D voters are prevented from voting. One of the federal judges appointed by Trump (and confirmed with a 50-50 Senate vote) was once an election official in the North Carolina government who sent letters, only to blacks, warning them that they could be imprisoned for voting if they had changed address in the past two years.

These inequities were put in place by governments that were supposedly democratically elected. But those "democratic elections" were controlled by the same cheaters; the frauds perpetuate.

And even if we ignore these problems, there's a question about what "democracy" even means. Suppose that 51% of Americans agree that all blacks be rounded up and individually sold at auction for the highest bid made by a white Christian bidder, with the proceeds used to provide free firearms for white Christians. Would the 51% agreement make this a "democratic" idea?

Different dictionaries give different definitions of "democratic." I like Abraham Lincoln's "Of the people, by the people, for the people." Increasingly the American government is not operated for the people; it is operated on behalf of liars and cheaters.

 

[untermensche]

Voters vote for them, that's democracy, right?

It's a corrupted democracy.

Corrupted by the need for money to run.

Corrupted by the abilities of corporations to afford special access.

Corrupted by corporate media.

Corrupted by billionaires buying politicians like a candy bar.

Corrupted by the revolving door connecting corporate lobbyists to Washington politicians.

Corrupted by an educational system more interested in corporate needs than the needs of the democracy.

 

[Elixir]

Voters vote for them, that's democracy, right?

Not really. Small "d" democracy is supposed to be representative. Under the guise of preventing a tyranny by the majority, Republicans have corrupted it into a tyranny by the minority.

 

[lpetrich]

Opinion | Voter suppression is bad. But this tactic is even worse. - The Washington Post

President Donald Trump’s effort to steal the 2020 presidential election fell short. Now Republicans across the country are promoting changes to laws and personnel that could allow him — or someone like him — to succeed in 2024.

I’m not referring to the hundreds of GOP proposals in statehouses across the country that will make it harder for many people, in particular Black Democrats, to vote. ...

What I’m talking about is in some ways even more insidious: an insurance policy to potentially steal the election if the vote-suppression strategy fails.

He failed at pressuring local and state officials to certify him as the winner. "He failed because enough local officials had more integrity and courage than a majority of the Republican caucus in the U.S. House has mustered."

“In 2021, state legislatures across the country — through at least 148 bills filed in 36 states — are moving to muscle their way into election administration, as they attempt to dislodge or unsettle the executive branch and/or local election officials who, traditionally, have run our voting systems.”

That is the conclusion of a recent report, “A Democracy Crisis in the Making,” by two nonpartisan organizations, States United Democracy Center and Protect Democracy, and a nonprofit law firm in Wisconsin, Law Forward.

“Had these bills been in place in 2020,” the report found, “they would have significantly added to the turmoil that surrounded the election, and they would have raised the alarming prospect that the outcome of the presidential election could have been decided contrary to how the people voted.”

FINAL Democracy Crisis Report April 21 - FINAL-Democracy-Crisis-Report-April-21.pdf - "How State Legislatures are Politicizing, Criminalizing, and Interfering with Election Administration"