Americans Don’t Miss Manufacturing — They Miss Unions

[coloradoatheist]

Did they actually blame unions for all the problems in the world? Islamic Terrorism is unionized? Transgenders in Target bathrooms are unionized?

You're right, Jason. They don't actually blame unions for all of the world's problems. Thank you for the correction.

Yeah, I thought they blamed Liberals for all the world's problems.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Part of it is the unions themselves too, though. Many of them don't have any teeth anymore because of conservative lawmakers and the corporations that fund them. Some seem to be pretty corrupt, taking dues and doing next to nothing for the workers that are unionized. Some have gone too far and protect those that shouldn't be protected, like those simply lousy at their job, for example.

When you live paycheck to paycheck, those dues start to look like someone is taking cash out of your pocket, cash you sorely need.

I confess I don't know a lot about unions. I've had past employment where I was part of a union, and I found the experience (form an average person's point of view) to be rather lame. I paid dues, but I saw little to no communication from the union, no transparency, it was difficult to get questions answered, etc. It feels like you're being ripped off, since you are mandated to join. I think the principal of unions is a good one. I recognize that in the past they fought for the rights that we as workers do currently enjoy.

As things stand now though, unions seems very weak and a waste of money in the average person's eyes. To make them useful again, laws would have to be enacted to strengthen them, provide better transparency, and allow for neutral oversight.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Capitalism couldn't exist without brainwashing the mugs, so it is important to distinguish between real 'right-wingers' (union-busting believers in unrestrained capitalism as long as it provides their own profit) and the quacking of the ducks and parroting of the parrots who obey them. The real Right is a very, very tiny minority - we could put them all in one jail.

The biggest form of brainwashing is making people accept the idea of dictatorship in the workplace.

But really in many cases it is learned helplessness, there is no alternative for many, not brainwashing.

That word "Brainwashing" doesn't mean what you think it means.

I've actually seen it in operation, admittedly at a low level. Two of us, while not having formal psychology training had grown up with close relatives that were psychologists, saw right through it. The rest of the group fell for it hook, line and sinker--and couldn't even see the problems when we pointed them out.

 

[untermensche]

The biggest form of brainwashing is making people accept the idea of dictatorship in the workplace.

But really in many cases it is learned helplessness, there is no alternative for many, not brainwashing.

That word "Brainwashing" doesn't mean what you think it means.

I've actually seen it in operation, admittedly at a low level. Two of us, while not having formal psychology training had grown up with close relatives that were psychologists, saw right through it. The rest of the group fell for it hook, line and sinker--and couldn't even see the problems when we pointed them out.

Indoctrination is the same thing as brain washing.

And the reason people accept dictatorship in the workplace is because they have been indoctrinated to it from birth.

For those unable to withstand the brain washing it seems normal and the immorality is completely invisible.

 

[prideandfall]

As things stand now though, unions seems very weak and a waste of money in the average person's eyes. To make them useful again, laws would have to be enacted to strengthen them, provide better transparency, and allow for neutral oversight.

no to make them useful again they'd just need to keep existing as they do right now, because they're already useful.
that people are too short sighted and too stupid to see what unions do for workers in general isn't the fault of the union - thinking unions are bad is no different from thinking vaccines cause autism.

 

[coloradoatheist]

That word "Brainwashing" doesn't mean what you think it means.

I've actually seen it in operation, admittedly at a low level. Two of us, while not having formal psychology training had grown up with close relatives that were psychologists, saw right through it. The rest of the group fell for it hook, line and sinker--and couldn't even see the problems when we pointed them out.

Indoctrination is the same thing as brain washing.

And the reason people accept dictatorship in the workplace is because they have been indoctrinated to it from birth.

For those unable to withstand the brain washing it seems normal and the immorality is completely invisible.

It's interesting, because in schools what are talking about about is talked about much and where it is it's put in a bad light and unions are put in a positive light. Most of the time is spent on things that have nothing to do with it.

 

[coloradoatheist]

As things stand now though, unions seems very weak and a waste of money in the average person's eyes. To make them useful again, laws would have to be enacted to strengthen them, provide better transparency, and allow for neutral oversight.

no to make them useful again they'd just need to keep existing as they do right now, because they're already useful.
that people are too short sighted and too stupid to see what unions do for workers in general isn't the fault of the union - thinking unions are bad is no different from thinking vaccines cause autism.

One of the issues is that people really only see the bad parts. They see the parts where bad teachers are protected, bad cops are protected, etc and the good parts are harder to see.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That word "Brainwashing" doesn't mean what you think it means.

I've actually seen it in operation, admittedly at a low level. Two of us, while not having formal psychology training had grown up with close relatives that were psychologists, saw right through it. The rest of the group fell for it hook, line and sinker--and couldn't even see the problems when we pointed them out.

Indoctrination is the same thing as brain washing.

And the reason people accept dictatorship in the workplace is because they have been indoctrinated to it from birth.

For those unable to withstand the brain washing it seems normal and the immorality is completely invisible.

"Indoctrination" is not the same thing as "brainwashing".

And the reason we accept dictatorship in the workplace is the simple reality that direct democracy does not work in any environment where people don't already know all the relevant information.

 

[untermensche]

Indoctrination is the same thing as brain washing.

And the reason people accept dictatorship in the workplace is because they have been indoctrinated to it from birth.

For those unable to withstand the brain washing it seems normal and the immorality is completely invisible.

It's interesting, because in schools what are talking about about is talked about much and where it is it's put in a bad light and unions are put in a positive light. Most of the time is spent on things that have nothing to do with it.

This was pulled from your backside.

Not even worthy of comment.

Children in the US are indoctrinated to do as they are told and to follow the orders of their masters.

They are trained to be obedient wage slaves from day one.

Whereas it is possible to teach them to be participants in democratic control from day one. But this would not help the capitalist masters who control what the schools do.

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Indoctrination is the same thing as brain washing.

And the reason people accept dictatorship in the workplace is because they have been indoctrinated to it from birth.

For those unable to withstand the brain washing it seems normal and the immorality is completely invisible.

"Indoctrination" is not the same thing as "brainwashing".

And the reason we accept dictatorship in the workplace is the simple reality that direct democracy does not work in any environment where people don't already know all the relevant information.

How is indoctrination different from brain washing?

Please be specific.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Indoctrination is the same thing as brain washing.

And the reason people accept dictatorship in the workplace is because they have been indoctrinated to it from birth.

For those unable to withstand the brain washing it seems normal and the immorality is completely invisible.

"Indoctrination" is not the same thing as "brainwashing".

And the reason we accept dictatorship in the workplace is the simple reality that direct democracy does not work in any environment where people don't already know all the relevant information.

The workplace operates more efficiently where individuals input are valued in decision making.

 

[untermensche]

"Indoctrination" is not the same thing as "brainwashing".

And the reason we accept dictatorship in the workplace is the simple reality that direct democracy does not work in any environment where people don't already know all the relevant information.

The workplace operates more efficiently where individuals input are valued in decision making.

Why bother?

He spews this nonsense because of good indoctrination not because of thinking.

Any organization can be run according to democratic principles. There is no need for top down control in the workplace. That is simply a remnant from slavery and feudalism carried over to today.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Pro-Union right wingers are pretty rare, aren't they?

Yes, assuming we mean the same thing by "right wingers", yes they are.

 

[whichphilosophy]

The workplace operates more efficiently where individuals input are valued in decision making.

Why bother?

He spews this nonsense because of good indoctrination not because of thinking.

Any organization can be run according to democratic principles. There is no need for top down control in the workplace. That is simply a remnant from slavery and feudalism carried over to today.

We don't use the word slave anymore but good sheeple.

 

[untermensche]

Why bother?

He spews this nonsense because of good indoctrination not because of thinking.

Any organization can be run according to democratic principles. There is no need for top down control in the workplace. That is simply a remnant from slavery and feudalism carried over to today.

We don't use the word slave anymore but good sheeple.

It is just more efficient slavery.

You don't have to feed the slaves or care if they are healthy.

All the benefits of slavery but fewer costs.

That is capitalism.

Without unions.

 

[whichphilosophy]

We don't use the word slave anymore but good sheeple.

It is just more efficient slavery.

You don't have to feed the slaves or care if they are healthy.

All the benefits of slavery but fewer costs.

That is capitalism.

Without unions.

The HR departments are increasingly the Sheeple dogs. In recruitment they are taught about the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

 

[coloradoatheist]

"Indoctrination" is not the same thing as "brainwashing".

And the reason we accept dictatorship in the workplace is the simple reality that direct democracy does not work in any environment where people don't already know all the relevant information.

The workplace operates more efficiently where individuals input are valued in decision making.

I agree but not a full democracy.

We have many businesses that are democracies, they are just small. It doesn't scale well.

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We don't use the word slave anymore but good sheeple.

It is just more efficient slavery.

You don't have to feed the slaves or care if they are healthy.

All the benefits of slavery but fewer costs.

That is capitalism.

Without unions.

So if I choose who I work for it's a master, but if I choose to work for a group that I'm just a number, that's not a master/slave relationship?

- - - Updated - - -

The workplace operates more efficiently where individuals input are valued in decision making.

Why bother?

He spews this nonsense because of good indoctrination not because of thinking.

Any organization can be run according to democratic principles. There is no need for top down control in the workplace. That is simply a remnant from slavery and feudalism carried over to today.

And we've asked you numerous times to go and put your money where your mouth is. Have you started a business with 50 employees as a democracy yet?

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

no to make them useful again they'd just need to keep existing as they do right now, because they're already useful.
that people are too short sighted and too stupid to see what unions do for workers in general isn't the fault of the union - thinking unions are bad is no different from thinking vaccines cause autism.

One of the issues is that people really only see the bad parts. They see the parts where bad teachers are protected, bad cops are protected, etc and the good parts are harder to see.

Don't forget the higher prices they have to pay in order to subsidize the artificially-higher labor cost.

 

[coloradoatheist]

One of the issues is that people really only see the bad parts. They see the parts where bad teachers are protected, bad cops are protected, etc and the good parts are harder to see.

Don't forget the higher prices they have to pay in order to subsidize the artificially-higher labor cost.

I'm not sure if that's as obvious, though people only pay lip service to made in America. It's no longer much of an advertising slogan because people don't put money where their mouth is.

 

[ZiprHead]

Pro-Union right wingers are pretty rare, aren't they?

My father and most all his co-workers were pretty right wing. He was a Journeyman Electrician shop rat working for GM. The only way to get him and his buddies UAW membership cards away from them was to pry it out of their cold dead hands.

ETA: I've known a lot of shop rats over my years. I used to hang out in a shop rat bar a half mile away from one of the local GM plants. I don't think I've ever met a liberal shop rat.

 

[untermensche]

It is just more efficient slavery.

You don't have to feed the slaves or care if they are healthy.

All the benefits of slavery but fewer costs.

That is capitalism.

Without unions.

So if I choose who I work for it's a master, but if I choose to work for a group that I'm just a number, that's not a master/slave relationship?

If you have no real power where you work you work for masters.

If you are part of a democratic organization and have as much power as everyone else you don't. You are free. At least as free as possible within the constraints of having to work.