Speakpigeon
Contributor
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2009
- Messages
- 6,317
- Location
- Paris, France, EU
- Basic Beliefs
- Rationality (i.e. facts + logic), Scepticism (not just about God but also everything beyond my subjective experience)
I don’t see why that’s necessary. They are words with referents that can be fact checked. And by “Georgia”, it should be obvious I mean the state. In fact, if what I meant isn’t the interpretelation, it’s not apart of my argument.If missy is in her car, her car is in South Carolina
If missy is in her car, her car is in Georgia
If missy is in her car, her car is in Alabama
If missy is in her car, her car is in North Carolina
If missy is in her car, her car is in Florida
Missy is in her car
Therefore, her car is in Florida
Here the contradiction is clear, a car can not be in two places at once.
Yet your argument here is not valid but not for the reason you give!
It is not valid only because it doesn't include the premises necessary to say that Georgia is not Alabama etc.
Because, from a logical validity point of view, it is possible that Georgia is Alabama unless a premise specifies otherwise.
Thus, there's no premises in your argument precluding the car being in all places at once because they are the same place.
Still, yes, it is no valid. But not for the reason you give.
Even your claim that "a car can not be in two places at once" could not be left implicit. There is nothing in logic that says something cannot be in two places at once.
Still a long way to go, Steve.
EB
Interesting point.
You're correct that this is what we do in informal arguments, i.e. whenever we have a conversation about the real world rather than about a ... formal argument. We assume the usual interpretation of the vocabulary used.
However, in this case, the question is essentially whether an argument is sound, not whether it is valid.
Arguments in ordinary conversations are nearly always very simple, broadly what Aristotle described in details. Thus, validity is usually not an issue, at least not with most people. The arguments used are very nearly always valid. Disagreements usually are about the truth of the premises.
Arguments are not even usually made entirely explicit so that we use enthymemes rather than proper syllogisms.
But we're discussing validity here, not soundness. And the key is to come back to the distinction between validity and soundness.
Validity is assessed on a 100% formal basis, meaning that you can't assume that the same word used several times in the argument always refers necessarily to the same thing, except for the logical vocabulary such as "and", "not", "is" etc.
In the argument here, there is no formal basis to assume that Georgia and Alabama for example don't possibly overlap, to some extent or even completely, and if they did, the car could be both in Georgia and Alabama.
But it goes in fact much deeper than that. Logic doesn't say anything about the properties of space. In particular, logic doesn't say that A included in B and B included in C implies A included in C. The spatial notion of "inclusion" isn't a logical concept. Thus, if you want to make up an argument about space, you need to specify whatever properties of space you want to take into account and you can only do that through some more premises.
Where the usual interpretation of the terms used comes in is when you assess soundness. By definition, you assess soundness on the basis of your assessment of the truth of the premises and you can only do that by accepting some interpretation of the words used. You can't assess the soundness of an argument about the Moon without deciding first what the word "Moon" will be taken as meaning in this instance. And then, whether you accept a premise saying for example that the Moon is a satellite of Earth is up to you but it will inevitably depends on what interpretation you accept for the word "Moon". Note also that assessing soundness requires that you accept an interpretation without the support of any good logical reason. In other words, soundness is assessed on the basis of what you believe about the world. You can always try to analyse concepts to get down to fundamental entities, but your argument will have to mention such entities, using some words, and it will be up to you to decide whether what the premises say about them is true or not.
Thus, validity is necessary to soundness, but it is not sufficient. You can't completely reduce soundness to validity. Physics in particular may be understood as the theoretical analysis of the concepts used in our arguments, to get down to arguments only using fundamental entities such as quarks and what not, but even physics has to stop the analysis at some point and decide of the truth of the premises, and this not on logical ground but on empirical ground. Thus, application of logic is not ... logical. At least not even 50% logical, which explains why we have never ending debates whatever the issue. How do we get to agree that God exists on logical ground only?
EB