Another college is repeating the male-is-guilty garbage

[Loren Pechtel]

I have never had sex when drunk. I don't imagine I would enjoy it nearly as much. Is it really as fun as sex when sober?

Agreed--but since I've never been drunk I don't really think I can judge too well.

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On what do you base that assertion?


https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/grants/219181.pdf

We've already discussed this report--that conveniently lacks an adequate definition of "incapacitated".

 

[Metaphor]

I have never had sex when drunk. I don't imagine I would enjoy it nearly as much. Is it really as fun as sex when sober?

The point of getting drunk is not to improve sex. The point of getting drunk is to be drunk. If the prospect of sex arises, one cannot become instantaneously sober.

But it's strange to think that you believe the physical and psychological sensations would be necessarily dampened by a state of inebriation (unless of course you have actually passed out). I don't find eating less enjoyable just because I'm tipsy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

An extensive DOJ study is "pseudo science" but a bunch of people on the internet with zero credentials can 'shred' it with no data except notions they pull out of their asses?

Wow.

1) It's not a DOJ study, they just had some DOJ funding.

2) This is a politically sensitive area--I wouldn't trust the government to be unbiased.

3) The state of social science research these days is so poor that it's often quite possible for amateurs to shred it. It doesn't take a Ph.D. to find things like the missing definition of "incapacitated".

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I won't speak for Derec but I'm not casting all such claims as morning after regrets. Rather, you're the one assuming none are regrets. The reality certainly is that some but not all are regrets--that case must be considered rather than automatically believing her.

Please point out where, at any time anywhere on any incarnation of this board, anyone ever claimed there is never a case of "regrets" resulting in a false rape accusation. Every person I can ever recall fully acknowledges this possibility. Moreover, every person I can recall thinks that every case should be decided on its own merits rather than automatically believing anyone involved. If you remember otherwise, quote the specific comments with a link back to the source.

I will also noted that you (and Derec and others) regularly GROSSLY over-"estimate" the cases of suspected "regrets".

Or you underestimate.

 

[Toni]

I have never had sex when drunk. I don't imagine I would enjoy it nearly as much. Is it really as fun as sex when sober?

The point of getting drunk is not to improve sex. The point of getting drunk is to be drunk. If the prospect of sex arises, one cannot become instantaneously sober.

But it's strange to think that you believe the physical and psychological sensations would be necessarily dampened by a state of inebriation (unless of course you have actually passed out). I don't find eating less enjoyable just because I'm tipsy.

You really play fast and loose with terminology. There is quite a difference between being drunk and being tipsy.

Please do some reading about the physiological effects of alcohol and why alcohol consumption might have an effect on sexual pleasure and performance at varying degrees of consumptin.

 

[Toni]

1) It's not a DOJ study, they just had some DOJ funding.

2) This is a politically sensitive area--I wouldn't trust the government to be unbiased.

Of course not. It is well known that the FBI and the DOJ are left leaning radical activists instead of unbiased governmental agencies and departments and staffed by employees which are hired and not elected, whose tenure spans multiple presidencies and political changes in the nation.

3) The state of social science research these days is so poor that it's often quite possible for amateurs to shred it. It doesn't take a Ph.D. to find things like the missing definition of "incapacitated".

Other terms not defined specifically:

rape
forcible
the
is
drug

And so on. It is quite apparent that you haven't read the study any more than you read any links posted here, including the very rare links you post yourself.

I will also noted that you (and Derec and others) regularly GROSSLY over-"estimate" the cases of suspected "regrets".

Or you underestimate.

What is your stance on climate change? Do you think that Elvis is a) being held by aliens b) being held by the FBI/CIA or other governmental covert operations c)is living in a nursing home in east Texas?

 

[Metaphor]

The point of getting drunk is not to improve sex. The point of getting drunk is to be drunk. If the prospect of sex arises, one cannot become instantaneously sober.

But it's strange to think that you believe the physical and psychological sensations would be necessarily dampened by a state of inebriation (unless of course you have actually passed out). I don't find eating less enjoyable just because I'm tipsy.

You really play fast and loose with terminology. There is quite a difference between being drunk and being tipsy.

Please do some reading about the physiological effects of alcohol and why alcohol consumption might have an effect on sexual pleasure and performance at varying degrees of consumptin.

Okay, I enjoy eating when I'm drunk, just as I do when I'm sober.

"Performance" I'll grant you; if you can't get it up it ain't going to be much fun.

(Doesn't apply to lesbian sex, obviously. I mean who knows what they do. It doesn't bear thinking about.)

 

[Toni]

You really play fast and loose with terminology. There is quite a difference between being drunk and being tipsy.

Please do some reading about the physiological effects of alcohol and why alcohol consumption might have an effect on sexual pleasure and performance at varying degrees of consumptin.

Okay, I enjoy eating when I'm drunk, just as I do when I'm sober.

"Performance" I'll grant you; if you can't get it up it ain't going to be much fun.

(Doesn't apply to lesbian sex, obviously. I mean who knows what they do. It doesn't bear thinking about.)

Since apparently you don't have google in Oz;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_and_sex

 

[whichphilosophy]

The requirements clearly are intrusive, and don't have any value to higher education, which is what the university should be focussing on.

I checked through the following Californian State Legislation

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billNavClient.xhtml?bill_id=201320140SB967

Senate Bill No. 967
CHAPTER 748

As for being drunk itself constitutes rape, the bill does state that being drunk constitutes valid grounds ... as follows:

QUOTE (4) A policy that, in the evaluation of complaints in the disciplinary process, it shall not be a valid excuse that the accused believed that the complainant affirmatively consented to the sexual activity if the accused knew or reasonably should have known that the complainant was unable to consent to the sexual activity under any of the following circumstances:

(A) The complainant was asleep or unconscious.

(B) The complainant was incapacitated due to the influence of drugs, alcohol, or medication, so that the complainant could not understand the fact, nature, or extent of the sexual activity. UNQUOTE

The above is self-explanatory.

 

[Metaphor]

Okay, I enjoy eating when I'm drunk, just as I do when I'm sober.

"Performance" I'll grant you; if you can't get it up it ain't going to be much fun.

(Doesn't apply to lesbian sex, obviously. I mean who knows what they do. It doesn't bear thinking about.)

Since apparently you don't have google in Oz;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_and_sex

Oy vey.

Nothing there indicates that sex while drunk greatly negatively impacts sex. The effects described are mixed.

Even if it were negative, nobody's getting drunk just to have sex, and unless the sex were going to be marginal anyway, you wouldn't avoid sex just because it was 'drunk sex'.

Honestly, the way people are carrying on you'd think drunk sex were a net negative experience.

Do you balk at having an ordinary scotch fillet because you had wagyu scotch fillet at other times?

 

[Toni]

Since apparently you don't have google in Oz;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_and_sex

Oy vey.

Nothing there indicates that sex while drunk greatly negatively impacts sex. The effects described are mixed.

Even if it were negative, nobody's getting drunk just to have sex, and unless the sex were going to be marginal anyway, you wouldn't avoid sex just because it was 'drunk sex'.

Honestly, the way people are carrying on you'd think drunk sex were a net negative experience.

Do you balk at having an ordinary scotch fillet because you had wagyu scotch fillet at other times?

Speaking for myself, my personal philosophy is that if you need to get drunk to do something, maybe you don't really want to do it. But I think we're talking about a two different things: Needing to get drunk to have sex or believing that getting drunk will lead you to have better sex VS having sex while you are drunk. The first is much more common among young people.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Even if it does clearly blame men, as a man, that's fine with me. Men commit disproportionately more sexual assaults than women, so despite whiners it's only pragmatic to focus on men when it comes to sensitivity training.

That was my thought too: while it is not uncommon for a man to rape a drunk woman, it is VERY uncommon for a woman to rape a drunk man.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Even if it does clearly blame men, as a man, that's fine with me. Men commit disproportionately more sexual assaults than women, so despite whiners it's only pragmatic to focus on men when it comes to sensitivity training.

That was my thought too: while it is not uncommon for a man to rape a drunk woman, it is VERY uncommon for a woman to rape a drunk man.

The actual legislation referring which I referred to in post 48 does not say that sex with a drunk person is automatic, though one can rape a drunk person. The investigation would need to establish as best as possible whether the accused honestly believed this was consensual.

QUOTE (4) A policy that, in the evaluation of complaints in the disciplinary process, it shall not be a valid excuse that the accused believed that the complainant affirmatively consented to the sexual activity if the accused knew or reasonably should have known that the complainant was unable to consent to the sexual activity under any of the following circumstances:

(A) The complainant was asleep or unconscious.

(B) The complainant was incapacitated due to the influence of drugs, alcohol, or medication, so that the complainant could not understand the fact, nature, or extent of the sexual activity. UNQUOTE

 

[JonA]

Even if it does clearly blame men, as a man, that's fine with me. Men commit disproportionately more sexual assaults than women, so despite whiners it's only pragmatic to focus on men when it comes to sensitivity training.

That was my thought too: while it is not uncommon for a man to rape a drunk woman, ...

What do you mean by "not uncommon"?

 

[ZiprHead]

That was my thought too: while it is not uncommon for a man to rape a drunk woman, it is VERY uncommon for a woman to rape a drunk man.

The actual legislation referring which I referred to in post 48 does not say that sex with a drunk person is automatic, though one can rape a drunk person. The investigation would need to establish as best as possible whether the accused honestly believed this was consensual.

QUOTE (4) A policy that, in the evaluation of complaints in the disciplinary process, it shall not be a valid excuse that the accused believed that the complainant affirmatively consented to the sexual activity if the accused knew or reasonably should have known that the complainant was unable to consent to the sexual activity under any of the following circumstances:

(A) The complainant was asleep or unconscious.

(B) The complainant was incapacitated due to the influence of drugs, alcohol, or medication, so that the complainant could not understand the fact, nature, or extent of the sexual activity. UNQUOTE

But, but, but does it define what incapacitated means?

 

[J842P]

Even if it does clearly blame men, as a man, that's fine with me. Men commit disproportionately more sexual assaults than women, so despite whiners it's only pragmatic to focus on men when it comes to sensitivity training.

That was my thought too: while it is not uncommon for a man to rape a drunk woman, it is VERY uncommon for a woman to rape a drunk man.

Eh. I've seen it happen. Of course, society doesn't consider it rape, but if the genders were reversed, you can bet it would be called rape.

 

[J842P]

Oy vey.

Nothing there indicates that sex while drunk greatly negatively impacts sex. The effects described are mixed.

Even if it were negative, nobody's getting drunk just to have sex, and unless the sex were going to be marginal anyway, you wouldn't avoid sex just because it was 'drunk sex'.

Honestly, the way people are carrying on you'd think drunk sex were a net negative experience.

Do you balk at having an ordinary scotch fillet because you had wagyu scotch fillet at other times?

Speaking for myself, my personal philosophy is that if you need to get drunk to do something, maybe you don't really want to do it. But I think we're talking about a two different things: Needing to get drunk to have sex or believing that getting drunk will lead you to have better sex VS having sex while you are drunk. The first is much more common among young people.

I don't know any young people who think that getting drunk will lead you to have better sex. I mean, I'm on a college campus right now, and that doesn't seem to be the how things play out. College kids like getting drunk. Period. Sex happens because they are young and horny and alcohol lowers inhibitions. Now, I know people who think getting drunk will make them more social. There are lots of kids who try to get over their social anxieties by imbibing too much. I don't think sex is something they are thinking about, at least, there isn't a straight line from "I get drunk so I can have better sex."

 

[Crazy Eddie]

That was my thought too: while it is not uncommon for a man to rape a drunk woman, ...

What do you mean by "not uncommon"?

"Not uncommon" by way of contrast with "uncommon." Meaning it is an occurrence that is known to happen, on occasion, when the right conditions are present. Namely:

1) the presence of a drunk/incapacitated victim
2) the presence of a rapist
3) uninterrupted access by the rapist to the victim in a private place

Which is to say that in the case of #1 and #2, the victim is usually female and the rapist is usually male. The reverse case is uncommon.


I'm not sure why I even bothered explaining this.

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That was my thought too: while it is not uncommon for a man to rape a drunk woman, it is VERY uncommon for a woman to rape a drunk man.

Eh. I've seen it happen. Of course, society doesn't consider it rape, but if the genders were reversed, you can bet it would be called rape.

I've seen it happen too. More than once, in fact. I'm just aware that it happens ALOT more frequently in the other direction.

 

[Metaphor]

I'm just aware that it happens ALOT more frequently in the other direction.

"A LOT".

I'm sorry, I can usually rein it in, but "alot" is not a word and seeing it in all caps was triggering for me.

 

[J842P]

I should add that I don't disagree that there are sexual predators who will take advantage of drunk people. It happens more often to be men.

Anyway, there is a troublesome culture of binge drinking on college campuses. It is not good. It especially doesn't mix well with immaturity. It is a problem that for many kids (or whatever you want to call 17 and 18 year olds) their first exposure to drinking alcohol is among other uninitiated peers without older people. In this context, getting black out drunk isn't something to be ashamed about. It is celebrated with others like playing with a new toy.

 

[whichphilosophy]

The actual legislation referring which I referred to in post 48 does not say that sex with a drunk person is automatic, though one can rape a drunk person. The investigation would need to establish as best as possible whether the accused honestly believed this was consensual.

QUOTE (4) A policy that, in the evaluation of complaints in the disciplinary process, it shall not be a valid excuse that the accused believed that the complainant affirmatively consented to the sexual activity if the accused knew or reasonably should have known that the complainant was unable to consent to the sexual activity under any of the following circumstances:

(A) The complainant was asleep or unconscious.

(B) The complainant was incapacitated due to the influence of drugs, alcohol, or medication, so that the complainant could not understand the fact, nature, or extent of the sexual activity. UNQUOTE

But, but, but does it define what incapacitated means?

This is for the court to define. Each case will have its own distinguishing circumstances. If the accused provides sufficient evidence that he believed the complainant FIRMLY consented.... then he is likely to be acquitted. That is provided he reasonably should have known the complainant was unable to consent (or said no).