Another mass shooting - largest in a good while, by a few victims

[Horatio Parker]

Nine minutes. Geesh, you call that a catastrophe?! Take 9/11, now that was a complete disaster, believe me!

Don't know what you're getting at. All I'm saying it seems like a long time between end of firing and the cops getting in, assuming those are accurate facts.

Also, what was the gunman doing for an hour? Just waiting around? I'm no emergency authority, but it seems kinda weird to me.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Nine minutes. Geesh, you call that a catastrophe?! Take 9/11, now that was a complete disaster, believe me!

Don't know what you're getting at. All I'm saying it seems like a long time between end of firing and the cops getting in, assuming those are accurate facts.

I was paraphrasing Trump today about his comments in Puerto Rico, that it wasn't as bad as Katrina.

 

[Artemus]

Nine minutes. Geesh, you call that a catastrophe?! Take 9/11, now that was a complete disaster, believe me!

Don't know what you're getting at. All I'm saying it seems like a long time between end of firing and the cops getting in, assuming those are accurate facts.

Also, what was the gunman doing for an hour? Just waiting around? I'm no emergency authority, but it seems kinda weird to me.

I suspect that he was spending that time dead considering that he killed himself after shooting everyone.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

Actually, if he had used a truck or bus he could have killed many more. There were over 20,000 people crammed in shoulder to shoulder with no place to run. From the videos I saw of the area there was nothing in place to stop a large truck, only fences that confined the audience. If he had stolen a large truck and drove through the fence at 50mph, he could have probably killed four or five hundred of them and wounded many more.

Well yeah, there should be some licensing and registration/insurance requirements around driving a large truck. I mean it's not exactly safe, people might use it to kill someone.

aa

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Yes the AR15 can easily be converted to full automatic.

It's nothing more than changing out a few parts.

It is more than changing parts unless you mean changing to a M16. To convert the AR15, there is illegal parts and millwork required. You can't just covertly buy the parts and stick them in because they will not fit.

If he doesn't know how to do it, then it must be easy.

 

[untermensche]

It is more than changing parts unless you mean changing to a M16. To convert the AR15, there is illegal parts and millwork required. You can't just covertly buy the parts and stick them in because they will not fit.

If he doesn't know how to do it, then it must be easy.

I know for a fact it is very easy. It only takes the tools and a little experience.

If this is your argument you have none.

The more semi-automatics in society = the more automatics.

This cannot be denied.

 

[Ford]

Arguments over interchangeable parts aside, there's one group we haven't heard from regarding a possible solution to these mass shootings:

The NRA.

They allegedly represent the interests of responsible gun owners (and the companies that manufacture the guns) and after every single one of these events, they lay low for a bit, and while the whole country is asking valid questions like "why did this happen?" and "how can we stop this?" the outfit that claims to be in favor of lawful and legitimate gun use provides no other solutions than "have you considered buying another gun?"

I mean, if they're really advocates for responsible use of firearms, then why haven't they presented a plan?

(I know the answer...I'm just asking questions rhetorically)

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

If he doesn't know how to do it, then it must be easy.

I know for a fact it is very easy. It only takes the tools and a little experience.

If this is your argument you have none.

The more semi-automatics in society = the more automatics.

This cannot be denied.

I deny it on the grounds that the majority of Americans aren't gunsmiths. Majoring in Minority Studies didn't give you the knowledge after all.

 

[untermensche]

I know for a fact it is very easy. It only takes the tools and a little experience.

If this is your argument you have none.

The more semi-automatics in society = the more automatics.

This cannot be denied.

I deny it on the grounds that the majority of Americans aren't gunsmiths. Majoring in Minority Studies didn't give you the knowledge after all.

I affirm it on the grounds that any gunsmith can easily do it and many other people can easily do it.

It takes no more technology that cutting metal and making metal parts.

The only reason it is not widespread is because it is illegal. The semi-automatics are everywhere.

The laws are working.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I assume you have experience cutting metal and making metal parts? Did they teach you that in Minority Studies?

 

[untermensche]

I assume you have experience cutting metal and making metal parts? Did they teach you that in Minority Studies?

I have known gunsmiths personally.

All have told me there was no modification to something as simple as a semi-automatic rifle they could not easily make.

There are no unusual materials or methods even needed. It is cutting and shaping steel or aluminum.

This is not rocket science. It is not even a secret.

Converting to Full Auto

Shooters prize the semiautomatic Glock for its reliability and ease of use. But what many may not know is that with a few scraps of metal and some simple hand tools, the amateur tinkerer can convert any Glock to full automatic. The conversion design detailed in this book allows properly licensed individuals to transform a regular semi-auto pistol into one that delivers selective-fire operation without altering the major components of the gun such as the receiver (frame) or slide. Step-by-step instructions, professionally prepared technical illustrations of weapon functions in semi and full-auto combined with high-quality photos showing the modified factory components and their proper relationships with the full-auto conversion parts allow the reader to clearly see and understand how the whole system works. Warning: Actual construction of the weapon described in this book may be illegal under federal, state, and local laws. All BATF rules apply, and the BATF actively pursues and prosecutes anyone who violates federal gun statutes. Therefore, this book is for academic study only.

http://www.2acheck.com/converting-to-full-auto/

 

[DBT]

The nature of a sickness of mind that turns an apparently average person into a killer should be examined and addressed. Someone who is determined to kill can find the means to kill, so the question of why this sort of manic violence is happening, and apparently happening at an ever increasing rate in recent times.

I believe it might well have something to do with guns, like the way your rate of gun-murders is thirty times ours and your civilians have shot more of one another than have died in any of your wars. Surely it can't be their general availability!

Not our rate, I live in Australia, and I am a gun owner. But I'd say the problem lies more with the American attitude toward guns and problem solving than guns and availability alone. I do agree with background checks as a requirement for a gun license, including possible mental health issues.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I know for a fact it is very easy. It only takes the tools and a little experience.

If this is your argument you have none.

The more semi-automatics in society = the more automatics.

This cannot be denied.

I deny it on the grounds that the majority of Americans aren't gunsmiths.

The majority of Americans aren't certified auto mechanics either, but that doesn't mean you have to be an auto mechanic to perform an oil change.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The problem with guns is not confined to mass shootings.

Once again I see you have pulled your figures from one of your orifices.

Making guns illegal won't disarm the criminals.

This guy wasn't a criminal before he opened fire. Neither was Adam Lanza, for that matter. In fact, most of the mass shootings in this country were committed by otherwise law-abiding citizens with scant (if any) criminal records, using guns that were purchased legally.

The thing is you are focusing on guns. I don't care, I'm looking at dead innocents regardless of method. You may feel better by saving that shooting victim but if it comes at the cost of a couple of people stabbed to death it's not worth it.

We've been through this before: bans on firearms DO NOT correlate to an increase in homicide by other means. It's actually the case, in fact, that a reduction in the availability of guns makes homicides harder to perform in the first place, such that even in periods where violent crime increases, the homicide rate remains unchanged.

Availability of firearms turns EVERY crime into a potential murder. Availability of automatic firearms turns every citizen, law abiding or not, into a potential mass murderer. It is worth pointing out, in case you forgot, that both of the Thompson submachine guns used in the Valentines Day Massacre were purchased legally; it is also worth pointing out that the frequent use of the Tommy gun by mobsters is a huge part of what got the U.S. to pass the National Firearms Act, which for all intents and purposes was America's very first gun control act.

 

[barbos]

Reports say he used legally bought bump-stock modification.
So there was no need for any gun-smithing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U6tORrODJE

 

[DBT]

I doubt if the bump stock modification would make a whole lot of difference to the outcome.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

ABC reports 400 wounded. I think it's a mistake.

Looking at video of the shooting, especially the footage without cuts... he fires off six long bursts of fire in the first four minutes of the attack, each lasting about ten seconds. Call it 6 to 10 rounds per second. So firing off a drum magazine from a fully automatic rifle like a modified AR-15. So call it 600 rounds in the first three minutes, by which point the place is in chaos and everyone is already running.

LVPD is saying that around 500 people were injured and 56 were killed... which would seem to suggest that this guy, from a range of like 300+ meters, fired off an automatic weapon under uncertain wind conditions spray-and-pray style, apparently with no real combat training or experience, and managed to achieve a better than 90% hit rate.

I'm not one to pitch conspiracy theories, but I'm not sure I buy this. Not doubting that you can get this kind of effect in total fish-in-a-barrel situations, it just doesn't seem probable you could get that kind of hit rate from that RANGE.

Also lots of video was taken from the concert even after the shooting started, but the only thing it shows is lots of people hearing the shots and then panicking. A number of people in the videos aren't even sure they're real gunshots; at least two of them thought somebody was messing with the PA, and another witness thought the shooting was nearby but not actually aimed at the concert.

So I feel like there something really weird about the reporting so far and we're missing a huge part of it. Maybe more of the injuries or even deaths were caused by the crowd panicking and trampling people than the actual gunfire? I'm ALMOST willing to buy the "second shooter" theory, as weird as that sounds.

Nine minutes. Geesh, you call that a catastrophe?! Take 9/11, now that was a complete disaster, believe me!

Don't know what you're getting at. All I'm saying it seems like a long time between end of firing and the cops getting in, assuming those are accurate facts.

Also, what was the gunman doing for an hour? Just waiting around? I'm no emergency authority, but it seems kinda weird to me.

What seems weird to me is the fact that he still had thousands of rounds of ammunition laying around at the time he shot himself. Doesn't seem to me like spraying bullets into a huge crowd of people naturally progresses to a "Welp... my work is done here!" moment where you just kind of give up and kill yourself. One would think that if you have gone so deep into the moral event horizon that you're in the process of committing a mass murder, you're probably only going to kill YOURSELF as a last resort to escape punishment. But with that kind of arsenal sitting on his lap, his not wanting to shoot it out with the SWAT team is probably the strangest thing we've been told about him so far.

 

[barbos]

Hit ratio 90% does not surprise me, that place was packed. Committing suicide that fast does look fishy but we don't really know what people like this guy thinking.

 

[Axulus]

I assume you have experience cutting metal and making metal parts? Did they teach you that in Minority Studies?

As much as he is usually wrong, I have to agree with unter here and call bullshit on your objections. It isn't too difficult for a motivated individual to modify a semi-automatic weapon, especially an AR-15, to close to automatic capabilities with just a little bit of internet research and the right parts.

A couple of my friends actually told me that they intend to buy separate parts of an AR-15 and assemble them together to avoid having it registered by the government and therefore tracked for fear of future confiscation by the government. They have no particular exceptional gunsmithing skills or abilities.

 

[Tigers!]

Every time I hear of these massacres I ask myself the same 2 questions
1. Who do you Yanks hate each other so much?
2. Why do you yanks use guns as a first resort rather than the last resort. Or why let your anger get that far that guns seems a plausible solution?