Are monkeys domesticating WOLVES?

[fromderinside]

What impresses me about the story is that wolves act differently among geladas than they do in normal non social species present foraging. The wolves also forage this way among some grazing herding bovine species. Its obviously a benefit to wolves because their rodent foraging success goes way up when with geladas. Is it domestication? Maybe some day. Just because some behavior correction is seen among the geladas and tolerated by other wolves doesn't mean domestication is taking place. It does mean that hypotheses about how humans achieved domestic relations with wolves seem to be holding weight. Still, as some have said there need be genetic change for there to be wolves that don't domesticate and for others to become domestic. If memory serves me wolf domestication didn't originate in Africa. Rather it arose in colder, more temperature variable, climes.

As the article hints this may just be something ethologists and naturalists have missed up until now. Seems very logical that if success rates are improved behavioral changes will adjust to meet requirements to keep those higher rates when available.

I saw nothing in the story that suggested geladas were domesticating anything. I just saw that and interspecies pact had been formed probably for the benefit of both species that came with some within normal behavioral adjustments in common territory.

 

[Potoooooooo]

Another point is to think of what would happen if one gelada found itself isolated in the middle of a group of Ethiopian wolves. My guess is that the wolves would eat the monkey.

I would not be too sure about that

 

[fromderinside]

Its that they have nice canines? Really? Explain how coyotes take out dogs as enormous as mastiffs on a regular basis leaving no evidence that the mastiff was anything other than assassinated. Secondly that' a pretty small mouth housing those teeth implying a rather ordinary jaw for a carnivore.

see images for comparison

 

[J842P]

An Ethiopian wolf is about the size of a coyote and according to wiki it is a "highly specialized eater of Afroalpine rodents." So, likely, the Ethiopian wolf wouldn't go after something the size of a baboon normally.

 

[Bronzeage]

An Ethiopian wolf is about the size of a coyote and according to wiki it is a "highly specialized eater of Afroalpine rodents." So, likely, the Ethiopian wolf wouldn't go after something the size of a baboon normally.

The canine genus takes small prey individually, but hunts larger prey as a pack. If a baboon was isolated from its troop, he would have little chance against a pack of any canine species.

 

[Potoooooooo]

Its that they have nice canines? Really? Explain how coyotes take out dogs as enormous as mastiffs on a regular basis leaving no evidence that the mastiff was anything other than assassinated.

Wow, I had no idea a coyote could take out a mastiff

 

[fromderinside]

Its that they have nice canines? Really? Explain how coyotes take out dogs as enormous as mastiffs on a regular basis leaving no evidence that the mastiff was anything other than assassinated.

Wow, I had no idea a coyote could take out a mastiff

well....several in a pack when they work that way which is often. Point is Mastiff has no chance. No left coyotes with mastiff remains.

 

[skepticalbip]

An Ethiopian wolf is about the size of a coyote and according to wiki it is a "highly specialized eater of Afroalpine rodents." So, likely, the Ethiopian wolf wouldn't go after something the size of a baboon normally.

The canine genus takes small prey individually, but hunts larger prey as a pack. If a baboon was isolated from its troop, he would have little chance against a pack of any canine species.

Sorry, I know it isn't what you meant but I had a funny mental image of a savage pack of Shih Tzu swarming over that baboon.

 

[Bronzeage]

The canine genus takes small prey individually, but hunts larger prey as a pack. If a baboon was isolated from its troop, he would have little chance against a pack of any canine species.

Sorry, I know it isn't what you meant but I had a funny mental image of a savage pack of Shih Tzu swarming over that baboon.

View attachment 3281

It does sound silly, but not totally implausible. Canines do not attack larger species. They use their superior numbers to harass their prey until exhaustion. It's only after the animal is disabled by overheating and defenseless. , they move in for the kill. If there was such a thing as a pack of feral Shih-Tzus, they could chase a baboon until he finally said, "fuck this shit," and just gave up. Of course, the Shih-Tzus would think this was all a fun game and be puzzled why the big monkey didn't want to play any more.

 

[fromderinside]

Sorry, I know it isn't what you meant but I had a funny mental image of a savage pack of Shih Tzu swarming over that baboon.

View attachment 3281

It does sound silly, but not totally implausible. Canines do not attack larger species. They use their superior numbers to harass their prey until exhaustion. It's only after the animal is disabled by overheating and defenseless. , they move in for the kill. If there was such a thing as a pack of feral Shih-Tzus, they could chase a baboon until he finally said, "fuck this shit," and just gave up. Of course, the Shih-Tzus would think this was all a fun game and be puzzled why the big monkey didn't want to play any more.

Most good fishermen fish that way. Gee, genetically embedded process ya think?

 

[Potoooooooo]

Of course, the Shih-Tzus would think this was all a fun game and be puzzled why the big monkey didn't want to play any more.

Well, if they did decide to play it would be really cute

 

[Wiploc]

Isn't doing historical speculation just a wild goose chase?
EB

If we didn't speculate, we wouldn't get answers. Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches and Guns, Germs, and Steel came up with answers that astounded me. I had assumed those questions would never get answered.

 

[Togo]

Isn't doing historical speculation just a wild goose chase?
EB

If we didn't speculate, we wouldn't get answers. Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches and Guns, Germs, and Steel came up with answers that astounded me. I had assumed those questions would never get answered.

I'm not convinced that the Incas had some kind of special limitation that stopped them using the wheel. I think it's just really not that useful in the area they lived in, where flat ground is, if not unknown, certainly extremely uncommon. In most of the Andes, all that attaching a wheel to something will do is ensure that you never see it again.

 

[Bronzeage]

If we didn't speculate, we wouldn't get answers. Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches and Guns, Germs, and Steel came up with answers that astounded me. I had assumed those questions would never get answered.

I'm not convinced that the Incas had some kind of special limitation that stopped them using the wheel. I think it's just really not that useful in the area they lived in, where flat ground is, if not unknown, certainly extremely uncommon. In most of the Andes, all that attaching a wheel to something will do is ensure that you never see it again.

The Incas had the wheel, but the only place it was used was on children's toys. When you are in the mountains, a back pack is more efficient than a wheel barrow.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Coming back on domestication, if monkeys could domesticate wolves, would they produce the same kind of domesticated wolves as we did with dogs? You can apparently produce a domesticated fox, looking much and behaving much like a dog, within a few human generations (maybe 30 to 60 years). This is because we are quite systematic about it. Monkeys would need probably much more time to get domesticated wolves. But they might also go about it very differently from us. I'm thinking about their ability to display prominent canine teeth that may be effective in communicating the proper message to the wolves. Our method is different (even though we can be aggressively violent too). We cull the individuals among the animals that are too aggressive to be controlled. Although not entirely impossible, the monkeys couldn't be expected to do that. But the big canine display contest between monkeys and wolves may act as just a way of communicating, much like they both already do among their own (see photos on page 3). If communication could on its own produce domesticated wolves, it may produce a very different one from dogs. One which is essentially still a fiery wolf, not a miniature one with a smaller brain. That would take more time but the two species have probably been cohabitating for quite a while now. Still, to talk of a properly domesticated wolf, the question in this case would be: Which genetic material was changed in the wolf?
EB

 

[fromderinside]

If this and all of these

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If this and all of these​

then Domesticated
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Wowl

Actually I would have included many of the "and these" as dependent conditionals but that would be good programming.