Are the ethics of this sort of political activity likely to help or hurt the former Soviet Union?

[fromderinside]

So I scan the NYT as is my habit and I find this: The Agency http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/m...column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

With this hook.

From a nondescript office building in St. Petersburg, Russia, an army of well-paid "trolls" has tried to wreck havoc all around the internet - and in real-life American communities.

The following expands on just what was taking place:

hoax was not some simple prank by a bored sadist. It was a highly coordinated disinformation campaign, involving dozens of fake accounts that posted hundreds of tweets for hours, targeting a list of figures precisely chosen to generate maximum attention. The perpetrators didn’t just doctor screenshots from CNN; they also created fully functional clones of the websites of Louisiana TV stations and newspapers. The YouTube video of the man watching TV had been tailor-made for the project. A Wikipedia page was even created for the Columbian Chemicals disaster, which cited the fake YouTube video. As the virtual assault unfolded, it was complemented by text messages to actual residents in St. Mary Parish. It must have taken a team of programmers and content producers to pull off.
And the hoax was just one in a wave of similar attacks during the second half of last year. On Dec. 13, two months after a handful of Ebola cases in the United States touched off a minor media panic, many of the same Twitter accounts used to spread the Columbian Chemicals hoax began to post about an outbreak of Ebola in Atlanta. The campaign followed the same pattern of fake news reports and videos, this time under the hashtag #EbolaInAtlanta, which briefly trended in Atlanta. Again, the attention to detail was remarkable, suggesting a tremendous amount of effort.

This is taking the notion of lowest common denominator to the extreme. People in the area where the fake attacs were reported taking place c=actually began repeating messages fed from the trolls with no evidence there was anything amiss or that Columbian Chemicals didn't exist.

Really? This is supposed to give someone a political or diplomatic edge. the rationale and ethics seem just a bit less believable than do the flatualnce of the Tea Party.

Will this kind of thing prevail? Are we doomed to be overrun by virtual events and expected to flea our posts because someone has invented a fiction?

It seems that after one or two of these, maybe a dozen or two dozen, we'd wise up and begin blaming those who foist this stuff for wasting our time and energy.
Just how much energy should we expend debunking stuff that isn't happening to the people where it isn't happening?

I'm thinking its a huge waste of political effort.

Am I wrong? Your thoughts?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You beat me to posting about this.


I suspect there's an aspect of practice to this--preparing to use it for actual disruption when they can benefit.

 

[dystopian]

The purpose of this sort of thing is to cause enough confusion and doubt about the veracity of media and public discourse to give Russia the benefit of the doubt. They're not interested in convincing anyone that the crazy conspiracy theories the trolls peddle are true; they're interested precisely in the opposite, to convince people that because of all the bullshit they read from the trolls (passed along as real news/public discourse), that maybe the stuff said about Russia is just more of the same.

 

[fromderinside]

The purpose of this sort of thing is to cause enough confusion and doubt about the veracity of media and public discourse to give Russia the benefit of the doubt. They're not interested in convincing anyone that the crazy conspiracy theories the trolls peddle are true; they're interested precisely in the opposite, to convince people that because of all the bullshit they read from the trolls (passed along as real news/public discourse), that maybe the stuff said about Russia is just more of the same.

The success of that view depends on their premise that people are stupid shits who are clueless about what's about them is true. Now while it seems that the democracies tend that way with the shares gained by patently dishonest players in their political systems. The fact of the matter is that a single truth tellers, take Roosevelt at the panic of 1933 who in a single speech turned the run on banks into a deposit run on banks, jerk people to reality pretty quickly in such societies.

I agree with your statement of Russian goals. I just think that tactic has been played and defeated consistently over generations. Its a wasteful tactic based on a faulty decision about human behavior and democracies.

 

[dystopian]

The success of that view depends on their premise that people are stupid shits who are clueless about what's about them is true.

Unfortunately, they appear to be right in this premise when it concerns a lot of people; given the frequency with which I see some westerners immediately jump to Russia's defense in the comments of news articles and forum threads that deal with whatever shit Russia's up to this week.

Now while it seems that the democracies tend that way with the shares gained by patently dishonest players in their political systems. The fact of the matter is that a single truth tellers, take Roosevelt at the panic of 1933 who in a single speech turned the run on banks into a deposit run on banks, jerk people to reality pretty quickly in such societies.

Unfortunately, this relies too much on the ability of a single individual to say the exact right thing at the exact right time while reaching enough people. None of which is guaranteed.

I agree with your statement of Russian goals. I just think that tactic has been played and defeated consistently over generations. Its a wasteful tactic based on a faulty decision about human behavior and democracies.

As a grand strategy that seeks to have 'final' goals and conclusions, it doesn't work. But that's not what Russia's interested in. It's just interested in upping the noise-to-signal ratio to make small gains here; to cause instability there. Sow doubt that can be taken advantage of; who cares about 20 years from now. And it appears to be working for them thus far. Time will tell if their luck will hold long-term.

 

[barbos]

Looks like the article is claiming this whole troll factory is private enterprise not directly connected to or paid by Kremlin. Kinda russian version of PAC group And this makes sense, Kremlin would not run such a shoddy operation.

In my opinion this is a waste of money, 400 trolls even working 24/7 is a drop in a bucket. But these are private money to waste. I am pretty sure if you look hard enough you will find similar groups in US too.
There was a thread about Pamela Gellar, muslim hate group, so there must be (by now) russia hates groups too.

 

[barbos]

By the way, calling Russia a former Soviet Union is a form of trolling too.

 

[KeepTalking]

By the way, calling Russia a former Soviet Union is a form of trolling too.

I was wondering why that phrase was used as well. It's not like the USSR is Prince, and changed their name to a symbol or anything. It's Russia, it has a name and that name is shorter than "the former Soviet Union", so use it. It's not like anyone is going to be confused over the terminology.

 

[tupac chopra]

All sides have their paid trolls. The west has trolls like Elliot Higgins, who seems to be blundering more and more every day now.
The So-Called 'Bellingcat' Is a Western MSM Shill Posing as an Alternative Truth Crusader

Bellingcat

Higgins seems to be getting more and more sloppy though.
http://7mei.nl/2015/06/01/about-bellingcats-claim-russian-sat-pics-fake/

 

[Will Wiley]

As the virtual assault unfolded, it was complemented by text messages to actual residents in St. Mary Parish. It must have taken a team of programmers and content producers to pull off.

Axulus, can I ask you. Do you think this story is true? It sounds funny.
What do you think the Russian government's aim would be to deploy so many resources to it?

 

[ksen]

Russia is basically the 4chan of nations.

hth

 

[barbos]

As the virtual assault unfolded, it was complemented by text messages to actual residents in St. Mary Parish. It must have taken a team of programmers and content producers to pull off.

Axulus, can I ask you. Do you think this story is true? It sounds funny.
What do you think the Russian government's aim would be to deploy so many resources to it?

There is a good chance that none of it has any basis in reality.
The reason why I think that is the apparent fact these "whistle-blowers" are not afraid and don't hide at all.
But my attempts to find more info on that Marat Burkhardt fellow failed completely, He popped on that Svoboda interview and disappeared.

 

[Jayjay]

All sides have their paid trolls. The west has trolls like Elliot Higgins, who seems to be blundering more and more every day now.
The So-Called 'Bellingcat' Is a Western MSM Shill Posing as an Alternative Truth Crusader

Bellingcat

Higgins seems to be getting more and more sloppy though.
http://7mei.nl/2015/06/01/about-bellingcats-claim-russian-sat-pics-fake/

I guess Eliot Higgins must have hit a nerve in Kreml. Note that the articles don't really debunk any of Bellingcat's findings, only criticise the methodology. And the misgivings of the latest article in no way debunk the fact that the BUK has been sighted and geolocated in both separatist-controlled area and Russia, and corraborated by multiple eye-witnesses.

But this is how Putin's trolls operate: find the weakest link, poison the well, and distort facts with misinformation.

 

[tupac chopra]

delete

 

[tupac chopra]

All sides have their paid trolls. The west has trolls like Elliot Higgins, who seems to be blundering more and more every day now.
The So-Called 'Bellingcat' Is a Western MSM Shill Posing as an Alternative Truth Crusader

Bellingcat

Higgins seems to be getting more and more sloppy though.
http://7mei.nl/2015/06/01/about-bellingcats-claim-russian-sat-pics-fake/

I guess Eliot Higgins must have hit a nerve in Kreml. Note that the articles don't really debunk any of Bellingcat's findings, only criticise the methodology.

His claim that Russia faked images and altered them is thouroughly debunked. He doesn't understand how Google dates the images it uses or what happens when an image is resized. http://www.gearthblog.com/blog/arch...magery-dates-really-mean-in-google-earth.html

And the misgivings of the latest article in no way debunk the fact that the BUK has been sighted and geolocated in both separatist-controlled area and Russia, and corraborated by multiple eye-witnesses.

Who are the eyewitnesses and what are the dates?
Higgins takes images and videos from the SBU and then asserts without any prOof whatsoever that they were taken on dates that suit him.

But this is how Putin's trolls operate: find the weakest link, poison the well, and distort facts with misinformation.

Pointing out that Elliot Higgins is incompetent doesn't make me a person a Putin troll

The wheels turn slowly but they do turn. the truth will come out. there is Dutch TV program out soon presenting evidence that the crucial video of a buk with a missing missile, relied on on by the "neocon trolls" was filmed on an earlier date.

Should be interesting.
This is the same video that the "neocon trolls" were so excited about on here.

 

[Jayjay]

I guess Eliot Higgins must have hit a nerve in Kreml. Note that the articles don't really debunk any of Bellingcat's findings, only criticise the methodology.

His claim that Russia faked images and altered them is thouroughly debunked. He doesn't understand how Google dates the images it uses or what happens when an image is resized. http://www.gearthblog.com/blog/arch...magery-dates-really-mean-in-google-earth.html

And the misgivings of the latest article in no way debunk the fact that the BUK has been sighted and geolocated in both separatist-controlled area and Russia, and corraborated by multiple eye-witnesses.

Who are the eyewitnesses and what are the dates?
Higgins takes images and videos from the SBU and then asserts without any prOof whatsoever that they were taken on dates that suit him.

The magic of internet. If you can find a picture posted on the internet on a given date, you can be sure that it was not taken after that date because time machines don't exist. Likewise, if there is a random photo that Higgins or some other blogger has found, they are easy to falsify by producing evidence that they were available somewhere on the internet prior to the date when they were allegedly taken. of course it is possible that someone has taken multiple pictures of BUKs around Ukraine, and not published them anywhere in order to falsify evidence of a shooting that has not happened yet, but that seems rather unlikely.

Then of course there are the time stamps etc. but those can be altered. But again, having multiple different sources like dashcams from Russia and pictures and videos taken by different people in different parts of Ukraine that all corraborate each other makes it exceedingly unlikely that there was some sort of deliberate conspiracy going on.

But this is how Putin's trolls operate: find the weakest link, poison the well, and distort facts with misinformation.

Pointing out that Elliot Higgins is incompetent doesn't make me a person a Putin troll

No, but it does make you an uncritical person who believes what the trolls are feeding you, and perpetuating their distortions.

The wheels turn slowly but they do turn. the truth will come out. there is Dutch TV program out soon presenting evidence that the crucial video of a buk with a missing missile, relied on on by the "neocon trolls" was filmed on an earlier date.

Should be interesting.
This is the same video that the "neocon trolls" were so excited about on here.

I agree that it would be interesting if that video is falsified. But until that happens, it's a fair guess that this is nothing but hot air. If such evidence existed, don't you think it would have been out by now? Anyway, do let us know when the Dutch TV program comes out so that we can discuss it here.

 

[tupac chopra]

His claim that Russia faked images and altered them is thouroughly debunked. He doesn't understand how Google dates the images it uses or what happens when an image is resized. http://www.gearthblog.com/blog/arch...magery-dates-really-mean-in-google-earth.html

And the misgivings of the latest article in no way debunk the fact that the BUK has been sighted and geolocated in both separatist-controlled area and Russia, and corraborated by multiple eye-witnesses.

Who are the eyewitnesses and what are the dates?
Higgins takes images and videos from the SBU and then asserts without any prOof whatsoever that they were taken on dates that suit him.

The magic of internet. If you can find a picture posted on the internet on a given date, you can be sure that it was not taken after that date because time machines don't exist. Likewise, if there is a random photo that Higgins or some other blogger has found, they are easy to falsify by producing evidence that they were available somewhere on the internet prior to the date when they were allegedly taken. of course it is possible that someone has taken multiple pictures of BUKs around Ukraine, and not published them anywhere in order to falsify evidence of a shooting that has not happened yet, but that seems rather unlikely.

Except that most of the photos come from the SBU!
No one one would ever have published them had the SBU not been desperate to accuse someone else. Plus as we don't have any originals we have no original metadata... the photos could be fakes anyway. Particularly as there are no eyewitnesses on those days.
More likely if there was a Buk in separatist territory it was the broken one that they captured in June 2014

Then of course there are the time stamps etc. but those can be altered. But again, having multiple different sources like dashcams from Russia and pictures and videos taken by different people in different parts of Ukraine that all corraborate each other makes it exceedingly unlikely that there was some sort of deliberate conspiracy going on.

That's the thing they don't corroborate each other lol. the BUK appears way off course, even in areas apparently under Kievs control according to "livemap"
https://humanrightsinvestigations.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/luhansk-buk1.jpg

I agree that it would be interesting if that video is falsified. But until that happens, it's a fair guess that this is nothing but hot air. If such evidence existed, don't you think it would have been out by now? Anyway, do let us know when the Dutch TV program comes out so that we can discuss it here

What would be more interesting is if Bellingcat or you could verify that it was taken around July 17 rather than believing it was without any evidence, apart from the SBU telling you it was

 

[dystopian]

Look, another thread about how Russia's using trolls and information warfare tactics to flood the internet with pro-russian/anti-west propaganda and conspiracy theories in order to up the noise-to-signal ratio and obfuscate what's happening...

...resident pro-russia trolls immediately begin perpetuating falsehoods and disseminating pro-russian propaganda in order to up the noise-to-signal ratio of the thread.

It's almost as if they're unaware that they're proving the premise.

 

[barbos]

Look, another thread about how Russia's using trolls and information warfare tactics to flood the internet with pro-russian/anti-west propaganda and conspiracy theories in order to up the noise-to-signal ratio and obfuscate what's happening...

...resident pro-russia trolls immediately begin perpetuating falsehoods and disseminating pro-russian propaganda in order to up the noise-to-signal ratio of the thread.

It's almost as if they're unaware that they're proving the premise.

I would not call you pro-russia troll.

 

[Jayjay]

Then of course there are the time stamps etc. but those can be altered. But again, having multiple different sources like dashcams from Russia and pictures and videos taken by different people in different parts of Ukraine that all corraborate each other makes it exceedingly unlikely that there was some sort of deliberate conspiracy going on.

That's the thing they don't corroborate each other lol. the BUK appears way off course, even in areas apparently under Kievs control according to "livemap"
https://humanrightsinvestigations.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/luhansk-buk1.jpg

Why do you think the map is accurate? If the data comes from Ukraine, you don't think they would have reason to exaggerate their claim. Besides, the BUK was traveling from the South-West, which was clearly under rebel control at the time. The reason for the diversion could be intense fighting near the airport.