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arguments for atheism

abaddon

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I look forward to other Christians commenting on the idea that God is figuring out how to fix the mess that he created by trial and error.
It would explain a fair amount about the world, ne c'est pas?
And by sheer coincidence, it's what the world would happen to look like if there was no God.

An odd claim, in my opinion. How would one know either way, with a sample size of exactly one universe to draw comparisons from?

If you're claiming that one could reason one's way into atheism a posteriori, rather than just by attacking non-atheism and assuming atheism as the last cosmology standing, I for one would be interested in a thread on your hypothesis. I have heard very arguments for atheism over the years, and not for lack of asking. Usually people just get upset at me for asking, and insist that no such argument is necessary (which is true of course but for me unsatisfying). But if you are saying that something observable about the universe's nature somehow implies the absence of a creating entity, that seems like it would be an argument for atheism, not just against Christianity as usual.

This idea is now open for general discussion in its own thread, as it was not elaborated on (and thus didn't derail) the other thread.

If you think the universe seems too haphazard to have been intended, then can you reason to "God didn't make it"? And thereby "reason one's way into atheism a posteriori, rather than just by attacking non-atheism and assuming atheism as the last cosmology standing"?

Are there arguments *for* atheism? Need there be?

Can we expect the universe to look like it looks (ie, not evidently designed with intention) and say "no god did this" with a reasonable amount of certainty?

My argument for atheism is the indisputable stance that I'm not convinced of theism and therefore, to date, I "lack belief" (ie, have not invested in the belief) in any variety of god.

Whereas the stance of naturalism is that no appeals need be made to the supernatural to explain nature.


If anyone would like to argue *for* atheism, have at it.
 
We don't know what the universe is. We don't know if this thing we call universe is singular or is an infinite number of universes. But we can see it, observe it, measure and document it, so we invent labels and start sticking them on things, this is this and that is that, etc. We keep peeling back unknowns and apply new labels when we learn something new. But where do we stick the label that says "god?"

People who think gods are real tell us to put their favorite label everywhere and on everything. Doesn't seem very helpful. Other people tell us that's wrong and not to put their favorite label anywhere. That doesn't seem very helpful either.
 
Atheism with respect to gods capable of interacting in any way with humans or other material objects of our scale and energy is a necessary conclusion from the Standard Model of particle physics.

It's possible (even probable) that the SM is wrong; But it isn't possible that it's wrong enough to permit an unknown interaction between any currently unproven entities and material objects of human scale and temperature.

Modern physics rules out gods, ghosts, souls, and a wide range of other 'woo' phenomena.

Theism is incompatible with physics. As it is possible to test physics to an extraordinarily exacting degree, and to find that it never fails to work; While tests of theism and similar woo are either impossible, or work only by using protocols that permit cheating or ambiguity of results, it is literally insane to continue to choose theism over physics.

Most theists resolve this unavoidable conflict by simply not learning physics. Those who do learn physics but remain theists are deluding themselves, and have no option but to make claims that they have every reason to know are wrong.

Such insanity is so commonplace amongst humans as to be completely unremarkable. Lots of people truly believe things that they know to be untrue. But that doesn't make such beliefs any less insane.

The god hypothesis is considerably less implausible than the selenotyroic hypothesis, and we wouldn't hesitate to consider people who subscribe to the latter to be crazy people whose grasp on reality has completely lapsed.

A person who publicly claims that a god or gods (or an afterlife) exists, should more than reasonably be treated with the same seriousness and gravity as a person publicly claiming that the Moon is made from cheese. The latter is a considerably less poorly supported claim than the former.
 
We don't know what the universe is.

Yes we do.

View attachment 31027

And so did our ancestors. In a couple millenia that chart will likely become the equivalent of earth, air, fire and water, as our knowledge expands.

Nope. Our ancestors didn't know. We do.

Understanding the boundaries of knowledge is as much a part of modern physics as understanding the way things within those boundaries behave and interact.

As I said before:
It's possible (even probable) that the SM is wrong; But it isn't possible that it's wrong enough to permit an unknown interaction between any currently unproven entities and material objects of human scale and temperature.

Gravity turned out to be wrong; But that meant that we had to find a better model for extreme cases such as the exact orbit of Mercury about the Sun. It didn't mean some stuff turned out to be able to fall upwards.

Gravity was known not to be quite right, but even before Einstein came up with a better model, Newton's model was known to be right enough to make accurate predictions on sufficiently small scales and at sufficiently low energies/velocities.

We know that the SM isn't a complete description of reality. But we ALSO know that it's impossible for it to be sufficiently wrong at human surviable energies and scales for a new particle or force to interact with humans (or their planet) non-destructively, and that's sufficient to rule out the phenomena I mentioned on my earlier post.

A desperate enough theist could throw all of god's supposed interactions with Earth under the bus; Dump pretty much every religion in history, and declare that their god was involved ONLY with creation, and hasn't interacted in any way with it since. It's true that the SM doesn't rule out such a pseudo-god. But the First Law of Thermodynamics says that mass energy cannot be created nor destroyed, which doesn't only rule out a creator god, it rules out a creation event.

I am completely comfortable with the idea that everything has always existed and will always exist, in accordance with the First Law. Anyone who wants to suggest otherwise is in the unenviable position of needing to explain why the First Law shouldn't apply to this one specific event, despite observably applying everywhere and everywhen else.

And even if they can clear this very high hurdle, they need to provide a reason for belief in their pseudo-god, and cannot base that reasoning on any putative interaction of such a pseudo-god with any post-creation aspect of reality (due to the constraints of the SM).

Some ideas are just ridiculous. Gods are amongst those ideas, and physics demonstrates this just as well for gods as it does for other ridiculous ideas, like moons made from dairy products.

When someone says "The moon is not made of cheese", we don't ask for mathematical levels of proof, not least because such levels of proof don't exist outside of mathematics. You can't PROVE that the moon isn't comprised mostly of Stilton. But that doesn't imply that you should seriously entertain the idea that it might be, nor that you should consider anyone making such a claim to be sane, reasonable, or worthy of your attention.
 
We don't know what the universe is.

Yes we do.

View attachment 31027

And so did our ancestors. In a couple millenia that chart will likely become the equivalent of earth, air, fire and water, as our knowledge expands.

Reminds me of the old classic from Isaac Asimov, The Relativity of Wrong:

[W]hen people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together.
 
If available evidence justifies a conviction that something exists, a God or gods, the absence of evidence for existence when evidence should be found justifies a lack of conviction. In the absence of evidence for the existence of a God or gods, a lack of conviction is justified.
 
If available evidence justifies a conviction that something exists, a God or gods, the absence of evidence for existence when evidence should be found justifies a lack of conviction. In the absence of evidence for the existence of a God or gods, a lack of conviction is justified.


You understate your point. In the case of gods that would leave evidence if they did exist, a lack of evidence justifies believing that those gods do not exist.
 
Well, color me disapppointed.

Why disappointed?
Same old apologetics, nothing like what was suggested in the OP. I'm not really interested in "disproving" various religions. The question was more whether atheism could, absent critiques of various religoius positions et cetera, be discovered somehow in the nature of the universe. Whether, as James Madison claimed, the universe "looked" atheistic somehow. But what we've had here are the same tired critiques of conservative Christianity that we see in every thread.
 
As it is possible to test physics to an extraordinarily exacting degree, and to find that it never fails to work
What exactly do you mean by this, that "physics never fails to work"? Do you mean to claim that physicists never make untrue predictions? I don't see how physics could ever have been developed, if that were so; science requires, as it were, a certain amount of targeted failure. And the history of physics is replete with failed hypotheses too numerous to count. Or is this just a platitude, not meant to be taken as a serious claim? What does it mean for physics to "work" or "not work"?

A person who publicly claims that a god or gods (or an afterlife) exists, should more than reasonably be treated with the same seriousness and gravity as a person publicly claiming that the Moon is made from cheese. The latter is a considerably less poorly supported claim than the former.
You sure employ a lot of emotional rhetoric, for a supposed fan of the sciences. You know that isn't how we refute one another's claims in true scientific contexts/conversations, right? I mean, tempers flare occasionally, academic politics swirl, but that isn't "science".

I am completely comfortable with the idea that everything has always existed and will always exist, in accordance with the First Law. Anyone who wants to suggest otherwise is in the unenviable position of needing to explain why the First Law shouldn't apply to this one specific event, despite observably applying everywhere and everywhen else.
"Laws" in science aren't actually laws in the sense that matter and energy are obliged to "follow" them somehow. The Law part is just a metaphor, and a rather theist metaphor at that. Scientific laws are descriptive, not prescriptive, and are as such bound by the assumption of uniformity. If there was ever a time when "the universe was not", or was fundamentally different than it now is somehow, we would have no way of discovering what "laws" governed that time, if indeed time itself were not one of the disputed properties. If uniformitarianism breaks, so to does the scientific method and any "law" it might discover.
 
Well, color me disapppointed.

Why disappointed?
Same old apologetics, nothing like what was suggested in the OP.
Well, your question is not well-posed. What's a "god"? Absent a substantive definition of the word, the hypothesis that a "god" exists is not even wrong. Feel free to provide a substantive definition.

If you don't want to provide one, we can use mine:

Definition: a "god" is any entity who wants to be worshiped, and deserves to be.

Premise: Worship is unethical.
-----------------------------------
Conclusion: Nothing is a god.

Satisfied? :)
 
Hi, Abaddon.
I am completely comfortable with the idea that everything has always existed and will always exist, in accordance with the First Law.
But in what form, Bilby? 'Always existent' or some times even 'non-existent'. Is 'always existent' a necessity? Dark energy, dark matter, something which interacts with the forces even less? I read to produce that kind of particle in labs is impossible because the energy requirement is too great.

Definition: a "god" is any entity who wants to be worshiped, and deserves to be.
For what? He created humanity after 13.78 billion years of the creation of the universe. The book say he did all that in 6 days. He loved dinosaurs better.
 
Well, color me disapppointed.

Why disappointed?
Same old apologetics, nothing like what was suggested in the OP. I'm not really interested in "disproving" various religions. The question was more whether atheism could, absent critiques of various religoius positions et cetera, be discovered somehow in the nature of the universe. Whether, as James Madison claimed, the universe "looked" atheistic somehow. But what we've had here are the same tired critiques of conservative Christianity that we see in every thread.

Maybe it's not the critiques that are "tired."

You and I are certainly the universe, and we therefore must be part of that nature. "Atheism" is just another religious label. Using it to talk about the nature of the universe introduces inescapable bias akin to trying to prove a negative. What we should be asking is whether an absence of woo or an absence of magic can be discovered in the nature of the universe. These things called gods, just like elves, are creatures of woo so let's discuss the whole meal, not just an invisible, alleged, microscopic, miniscule bit of processed, magical cheese sitting on a person's plate.
 
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