• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Atheists should step up

Lion IRC

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2016
Messages
4,930
Basic Beliefs
Biblical theist
I have always thought atheists should step up and meet their burden of persuasion.
You either believe there's no God(s) in which case you are a believer, (LOL. See what I did there?) or you have some sort of objective, empirical evidence to support your claim.
Bring it!
 
I have always thought atheists should step up and meet their burden of persuasion.
You either believe there's no God(s) in which case you are a believer, (LOL. See what I did there?) or you have some sort of objective, empirical evidence to support your claim.
Bring it!

Actually, the burden for proof is on the believer who has the extraordinary belief that there is a magical being with ultimate power in the universe.
 
I have always thought atheists should step up and meet their burden of persuasion.
You either believe there's no God(s) in which case you are a believer, (LOL. See what I did there?) or you have some sort of objective, empirical evidence to support your claim.
Bring it!

Ok. Here I come. This is one of the most common and famous logical fallacies that Christians keep making. It's so famous that it's got it's own place in the taxonomy of logical fallacies.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/ignorant.html

Atheism and theism aren't remotely similar as beliefs. One makes claims and the other simply questions those beliefs. It's always on the person making the claim to support their belief.

What makes it funnier is that the Christian idea of God is patently absurd. If it's hard to believe a Boeing 747 can assemble itself on a junkyard, try an omnipotent, omniscient and invisible being that defies detection! Why bother arguing against something like that? Obviously, nobody is Christian for rational reasons. So you can't argue against it by rational means.
 
I have always thought atheists should step up and meet their burden of persuasion.
You either believe there's no God(s) in which case you are a believer, (LOL. See what I did there?) or you have some sort of objective, empirical evidence to support your claim.
Bring it!
And AGAIN, Lion ignores the direct testimony of actual atheists to prop up a strawman of his own, for his own agenda.
 
I have always thought atheists should step up and meet their burden of persuasion.
You either believe there's no God(s) in which case you are a believer, (LOL. See what I did there?) or you have some sort of objective, empirical evidence to support your claim.
Bring it!

Atheists "brought it" centuries ago and soundly demonstrated the extreme implausibility and self-contradiction of anything that would qualify as a God, with the God of the Bible as the most absurd. Theists retreated to the already logically fallacious "argument from design" as their sole pseudo intellectual cover, then the ToE utterly blew that up and exposed it's false premises.

Theists push "faith", which is nothing other than wishful thinking and is the definitional antithesis of evidence based reasoning, precisely b/c they know that there is nothing resembling a rational basis for theism and that their sky daddy is just fear-based fantasy.
That is the sole motive for pushing the absurd notion that believing without evidence is somehow a virtue.

The founding documents of the three major monotheisms all encourage and command murder and genocide against those who doubt God, precisely b/c they knew that theism cannot stand up to any scrutiny. They have also tied theism into patriotism and atheism as incapable of morality, precisely so that social coercion and fear of ostracization could be used to protect theism, since evidence and reason could not.

In every society that has established protections of basic rights which prevent theistic violence against doubters, theism has been on the decline. Whether comparing countries or comparing states within the US, those states with the better education populations are the least theistic, because knowledge is antithetical to theism. When personal liberty and information are negatively correlated with holding an idea, you can be pretty sure that the idea is both intellectually invalid and a weapon for authoritarians.
 
I have always thought atheists should step up and meet their burden of persuasion.
You either believe there's no God(s) in which case you are a believer, (LOL. See what I did there?) or you have some sort of objective, empirical evidence to support your claim.
Bring it!

I don't see any of the descriptions of gods or these gods' actions as claimed by theists to be even rational. Does this mean that I 'believe' there is no god? Try me. Define what you mean by the word 'god' and we will see. If you describe "god" as a person's personification of their personal fears, hopes, biases, etc. then you may be onto something.
 
I addressed this question on another thread:

That god does not exist is not a claim; It's a counter claim. Nobody has ever claimed that god does not exist without first being told by someone else that god does exist.

Atheism is a reaction to an absurd claim. Some absurd claims turn out to be supported by compelling evidence, and are eventually accepted as true as a result - for example, the claim that continents move around on the surface of the Earth over time, or the claim that a single electron can pass through two slits at the same time, as long as you don't look to see which one it went through; But the claim that a god or gods exist is not supported by evidence - the only evidence for the claim is that some people believe it.

The idea that
material things simply popped into existence one day, fully outfitted with a bunch of "physical laws" which exist for no other reason than that they seem to do, and/or have "always existed" and as such should be considered eternal
is NOT an atheistic claim. Theists make the exact same claim - they just extend the claim to include an extra unevidenced and immaterial thing, that caused material things to pop into existence, and that has "always existed" and as such is considered eternal.

Why an unsupported claim that includes an extra, unsupported and unevidenced, entity should be held up as less unlikely than the same claim without the extra entity, I cannot say - it makes no sense at all, but for some reason, some people find it more convincing.

It's bizarre to me that people find this 'god' idea compelling. I mean, if you were disposed to dismiss the idea of continental drift as obvious nonsense (and many were when it was first proposed), would you honestly find the hypothesis more convincing if it included the belief that the continental plates were pushed by gods, angels, or ghosts?
 
Atheists becoming more vocal and outspoken

I have always thought atheists should step up and meet their burden of persuasion.
You either believe there's no God(s) in which case you are a believer, (LOL. See what I did there?) or you have some sort of objective, empirical evidence to support your claim.
Bring it!
Actually, the burden for proof is on the believer who has the extraordinary belief that there is a magical being with ultimate power in the universe.
And AGAIN, Lion ignores the direct testimony of actual atheists to prop up a strawman of his own, for his own agenda.

It's no strawman. There are atheists who want to preach - be vocal and outspoken.
I'm not making this up;

How little or far should we atheists (or nontheists, skeptics, whatever) go in trying to advance our views?
...we atheists need to be more outspoken
...At this point in my life I no longer defend atheism; I actively promote it.
...we need to be more outspoken and activist
...it is disheartening to hear other atheists downplay the significance of promoting our views.
...it can still have a strong impact on other people.
...the bullshit atheist lines about "nobody ever changes their minds" needs to stop.
...Others who secretly hold doubts can become more confident and motivated
...The time for staying silent and pacifist about atheism/religion has long since passed.
...We need to be more outspoken and vocal.
 
Ok, when people like you tell me there's a god, I don't believe it.

See, neither empirical, nor belief.

There's more I could say about this if I thought for a second you were interested in real conversation.

But, as always, all you want to do is construct a semantic argument that seems to support your position. As with all religious semantic arguments, it is easily disposed of by focusing on its faulty assumptions, in this case, the idea that belief in god is the default position.
 
There's more I could say about this if I...[was an atheist proselytiser]
LOL It's OK.
You can leave the heavy lifting to the real atheists.

Which reminds me, I need to start another derail - about presuppositional atheism.
 
I have always thought atheists should step up and meet their burden of persuasion.
You either believe there's no God(s) in which case you are a believer, (LOL. See what I did there?) or you have some sort of objective, empirical evidence to support your claim.
Bring it!
Well, if you'd please disprove all of the other gods except your own, we'll follow suit with the last one.
 
I have always thought atheists should step up and meet their burden of persuasion.
You either believe there's no God(s) in which case you are a believer, (LOL. See what I did there?) or you have some sort of objective, empirical evidence to support your claim.
Bring it!

You want evidence that something doesn't exist? That's farking hilarious.
 
I have always thought atheists should step up and meet their burden of persuasion.
You either believe there's no God(s) in which case you are a believer, (LOL. See what I did there?) or you have some sort of objective, empirical evidence to support your claim.
Bring it!

You want evidence that something doesn't exist? That's farking hilarious.

But it is a rather weird consistency for someone who firmly believes that a lack of evidence proves that god does exist to believe that evidence would be required to prove that god does not exist.
 
More seriously, how many gods (yes, plural) are actually mentioned in the bible? I remember seeing a list somewhere that was even higher than I thought. I've seen arguments that are way more coherent than the OP's that Jahweh and Jehovah are actually not the same god, Mammon, Beelzebub, etc. are the ones I remember off the top of my head. Yet, even though all these other gods are mentioned in their own book, xians claim there is only one.

Not only are they bad at theology, they're bad at arithmetic.
 
I have always thought atheists should step up and meet their burden of persuasion.
You either believe there's no God(s) in which case you are a believer, (LOL. See what I did there?) or you have some sort of objective, empirical evidence to support your claim.
Bring it!

Then you've always thought wrong.
 
I define God as a dried turd in a pile of dried turds by a gray stone deep in the Himalayas.

If the theist disagrees, he should say why.

Also, Lion IRC, define what you mean by atheism. It shouldn't be hard if you're going to work out a complete argument for "presuppositional" atheism. (Start simply and work your way up). Thanks.
 
More seriously, how many gods (yes, plural) are actually mentioned in the bible? I remember seeing a list somewhere that was even higher than I thought. I've seen arguments that are way more coherent than the OP's that Jahweh and Jehovah are actually not the same god, Mammon, Beelzebub, etc. are the ones I remember off the top of my head. Yet, even though all these other gods are mentioned in their own book, xians claim there is only one.

Not only are they bad at theology, they're bad at arithmetic.
That's interesting. Because Lion has said he believes the gods of other religions too, as incomplete images of God.

But doesn't that contradict the Bible if the God in that book was violently opposed to gods of neighboring tribes?
 
More seriously, how many gods (yes, plural) are actually mentioned in the bible? I remember seeing a list somewhere that was even higher than I thought. I've seen arguments that are way more coherent than the OP's that Jahweh and Jehovah are actually not the same god, Mammon, Beelzebub, etc. are the ones I remember off the top of my head. Yet, even though all these other gods are mentioned in their own book, xians claim there is only one.

Not only are they bad at theology, they're bad at arithmetic.
That's interesting. Because Lion has said he believes the gods of other religions too, as incomplete images of God.

But doesn't that contradict the Bible if the God in that book was violently opposed to gods of neighboring tribes?

I don't think arithmetical arguments are likely to sway people who think that 1+1+1=1

The important thing is power. Power is not a means to an end, it is an end in itself. If Big Brother the Pope says 2+2=5 1+1+1=1, then it is true. It cannot be questioned, only accepted.
 
Back
Top Bottom