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Austria plans compulsory Covid vaccinations for all

Metaphor

Contributor
Your sentence does not address my point that " You cannot begin to name all those people with your imputed thoughts."
Your sentence is meaningless.
You wrote "The point is the number of people who would not have considered forced vaccinations under any circumstances in 2020 are now not only indifferent to the possibility, some are expressing support for it." You have produced no evidence whatsoever to support your claim.
My evidence is my lived experience. Or more specifically, it is from observing expressed sentiments on social media between 2020 and now. Now, I don't mind if you don't believe me that I've noticed the change. But in terms of evidence of people supporting or being indifferent to the Austrian mandate--I would say the number of people on this thread who are indifferent or expressing support is more than zero. Indeed, not a single person has actually questioned this move.
I get that vaccine mandate upsets your values. There is no need to create "truthiness" to support your concerns. The gov't of Austria believes it needs to institute a vaccine mandate because it is more important to protect its citizens and to prevent its health care system from being over-whelmed than to preserve the choice to vaccinate or not of its citizens. You disagree with that policy.
Well, yes, I disagree with that policy. But I make the additional observation that there is ratcheting support for illiberal solutions to the Covid pandemic. Certainly, Biden in November 2021 would not agree with Biden in November 2020, when said he did not see a place for a vaccine mandate if he were elected President.

Also, whether a 'vaccine mandate' upsets my values depends on the specifics of a policy.
 

thebeave

Veteran Member
Would be great if it was a nasal vaccine with at least the nucleocapsid protein thrown in with the spike protein.

As Bill Gates has said


I like this comment:
We are human beings, not computers. You can’t just release buggy vaccines and then later just keep releasing updates to patch the buggy vaccines.
If these GloboConglomgerates purposefully made half assed waning vaccines that were meh with transmission, I would not at all be surprised. They just get to $ell at lot more.

Most of you fuckers ten years ago used to be HIGHLY skeptical of massive corporations and now you are sucking their dicks. This is pathetic.

If they got paid more for performance they would have an incentive.

And where the hell is the delta vaccine?
You're being a bit too hyperbolic, but I was thinking largely the same thing the other day. It wasn't that long ago that the left was largely against the very things that they are strongly advocating now, regarding vaccination. The pre-covid anti-vax movement was led by numbskulls like RFK, Jr and lefty Hollywood celebrities like Jenny McCarthy & Jim Carrey and their useful idiots like Oprah who gave them a platform to spew their crap. Anti-vax was also largely the domain of morons and white liberal elite enclaves in Marin County, CA as well as Oregon (in particular, Ashland). Not to mention all the constant ranting about the evils of Big Pharma and clinging to slogans like, "My Body, My Choice". And LOTS of distrust of genetic engineering and GMOs (instead embracing all things natural and organic regarding food and medicine), which is fundamental to the development of these life saving vaccines. Its like all that has gone out the window in a flash in a complete 180 degree shift. Its just all very odd.
… funny. I don’t recall any Lib’ruls advocating for smallpox, polio, rubella et al.
Even when I lived in Sausalito. Also lived in San Anselmo, but they weren’t doing the Right Wing Moron dance there either.
I don’t consider Lucy in the Sky to be representative of liberalism.
My guess is you were in Marin County back in the days when it was a bastion of hot tubs and peacock feathers. It has changed a bit since then, like most places. Regarding the anti-vax situation there I was referring to, this explains it pretty well:

Marin County And California’s Measles Outbreak: A Look Into The Epicenter Of The Anti-Vaccination Trend

Despite its reputation for being physically fit and contaminant-free, Marin County has a serious public health problem. Too few parents have chosen to vaccinate their children against such contagious diseases as measles and pertussis, commonly known as whooping cough. So-called anti-vaxxers have often eschewed modern medicine for more traditional health regimens, turning to the Internet’s flood of health and wellness blogs for direction. Blog posts with titles like “Massive Vaccine Cover-up Confirmed: Secret Documents Prove Vaccines Cause Autism” and “Studies Show That Vaccinated Individuals Spread Disease” inflate the risks of childhood vaccinations but end up getting disseminated throughout Marin.

That was from 2015. Fast forward to 2021, and we have this from the NY Times:

The Highest Vaccination Rate in California

The pocket of California that has emerged as a leader in Covid-19 vaccinations may come as a surprise.

Seventy-eight percent of people living in Marin County are fully vaccinated against Covid — the highest rate of any county in California (and just about anywhere in the nation).

“We still have pockets of very vocal vaccine refusers,” the county health officer, Dr. Matt Willis, told The San Francisco Chronicle, but “it’s clear the community culture has shifted.”

For years, resistance to childhood vaccinations was something embraced by left-leaning, hippiesh types. But opposing Covid-19 vaccines is associated with President Donald J. Trump, an unlikely stance in Marin County, where 82 percent of voters cast ballots for President Biden in 2020.

So, looks like the sea change in vax attitude may be at least partially attributed to TDS. Somewhat disappointing that it wasn't a clear cut case of the recognition of science and reason, but any means to an end, I guess.
 

laughing dog

Contributor
Your sentence does not address my point that " You cannot begin to name all those people with your imputed thoughts."
Your sentence is meaningless.
Ordinarily, I would defer to an expert in the provision of meaningless sentences, but you are mistaken. Perhaps if you point to the words you don't understand, you can be educated.
You wrote "The point is the number of people who would not have considered forced vaccinations under any circumstances in 2020 are now not only indifferent to the possibility, some are expressing support for it." You have produced no evidence whatsoever to support your claim.
My evidence is my lived experience. Or more specifically, it is from observing expressed sentiments on social media between 2020 and now. Now, I don't mind if you don't believe me that I've noticed the change. But in terms of evidence of people supporting or being indifferent to the Austrian mandate--I would say the number of people on this thread who are indifferent or expressing support is more than zero. Indeed, not a single person has actually questioned this move.
As I suspected, your claim is another example of evidence pulled out of your ass.
I get that vaccine mandate upsets your values. There is no need to create "truthiness" to support your concerns. The gov't of Austria believes it needs to institute a vaccine mandate because it is more important to protect its citizens and to prevent its health care system from being over-whelmed than to preserve the choice to vaccinate or not of its citizens. You disagree with that policy.
Well, yes, I disagree with that policy. But I make the additional observation that there is ratcheting support for illiberal solutions to the Covid pandemic. Certainly, Biden in November 2021 would not agree with Biden in November 2020, when said he did not see a place for a vaccine mandate if he were elected President.
Well there are people who actually learn from experience and change their minds.
Also, whether a 'vaccine mandate' upsets my values depends on the specifics of a policy.
Sure Jan. It is obvious you care more about some abstract vision of "civil liberty" than the health and welfare of the Austrian people.
 

Metaphor

Contributor
Ordinarily, I would defer to an expert in the provision of meaningless sentences, but you are mistaken. Perhaps if you point to the words you don't understand, you can be educated.
Your sentence is meaningless because I don't have to name any people or impute any thoughts to them for what I've said to be true.
Well there are people who actually learn from experience and change their minds.
Yes. That's why people tend to leave the left as they grow older.
It is obvious you care more about some abstract vision of "civil liberty" than the health and welfare of the Austrian people.
It is precisely the health and welfare of the Austrian people that I am thinking about.
 

Elixir

Content Thief
Well, yes, I disagree with that policy. But I make the additional observation that there is ratcheting support for illiberal solutions to the Covid pandemic. Certainly, Biden in November 2021 would not agree with Biden in November 2020, when said he did not see a place for a vaccine mandate if he were elected President

As Sleepy Joe readily and forthrightly admitted while you weren't paying attention, he didn't anticipate the kind of stupidity and irrationality that spawned the vaccine resistance movement.
Irrational actions that jeopardize public health do lead directly toward "illiberal" solutions because public health is a higher priority than freedumbs like drunk driving and infecting others with a deadly disease.
 

Metaphor

Contributor
Well, yes, I disagree with that policy. But I make the additional observation that there is ratcheting support for illiberal solutions to the Covid pandemic. Certainly, Biden in November 2021 would not agree with Biden in November 2020, when said he did not see a place for a vaccine mandate if he were elected President

As Sleepy Joe readily and forthrightly admitted while you weren't paying attention, he didn't anticipate the kind of stupidity and irrationality that spawned the vaccine resistance movement.
How myopic of him.
Irrational actions that jeopardize public health do lead directly toward "illiberal" solutions because public health is a higher priority than freedumbs like drunk driving and infecting others with a deadly disease.
Being unvaccinated is not drink driving nor does it mean infecting others. But, keep up the analogy. That's the exact way to win over hearts and minds.
 

Elixir

Content Thief
Being unvaccinated is not drink driving nor does it mean infecting others.

On an individual level that's true. Which is why the individual should have taken a back seat for a while when doing so could have saved hundreds of thousands or (eventually) millions of lives and save the global economy from the fits and coughs it now suffers.
Drunk driving doesn't mean crashing either. And crashing a car can't cause thousands of other people to crash the way willfully failing to take easy steps to mitigate a pandemic disease can.
So yeah, it's a failed analogy in that sense. It's hard to think of anything heinous enough to draw an analogy to what right wing extremists and conspiracy theorists have wrought upon us.
 

Metaphor

Contributor
So yeah, it's a failed analogy in that sense. It's hard to think of anything heinous enough to draw an analogy to what right wing extremists and conspiracy theorists have wrought upon us.
I'm sure the outsized deaths in those groups will bring you some comfort.
 

Elixir

Content Thief
I'm sure the outsized deaths in those groups will bring you some comfort.

Thank you for your concern, but don't be so sure.
Yet.
Right now, I just find it sad and STUPID.
But that could change:

...the data so far suggest the new variant has mutations “consistent with enhanced transmissibility,”

If it turns out to be more contagious AND more deadly, as well as remaining responsive to existing vaccines (an unlikely combo, IMHO) then yeah - it might deal out a worthwhile lesson for whatever anti-vaxxers remain after it kills most of them... and I'll be laughing through my tears. What else can you do in the face of such abysmal stupidity? If most anti-vaxers die, that will be cause for much grief, including my own, as there are people I would hate to lose numbering among the misguided. I would certainly prefer to dwell on the invaluable learning experience such a tragedy would entail.
 

TomC

Veteran Member
So yeah, it's a failed analogy in that sense. It's hard to think of anything heinous enough to draw an analogy to what right wing extremists and conspiracy theorists have wrought upon us.
I'm sure the outsized deaths in those groups will bring you some comfort.
Schadenfreude is not the same as comfort.

But yeah. Irresponsible people have been causing a lot of trouble for the rest of us. I feel something different when an antivaxxer celebrity suffers or dies, than when most people do.
Tom
 

laughing dog

Contributor
Ordinarily, I would defer to an expert in the provision of meaningless sentences, but you are mistaken. Perhaps if you point to the words you don't understand, you can be educated.
Your sentence is meaningless because I don't have to name any people or impute any thoughts to them for what I've said to be true.
Well, if you want anyone to accept your claims as true, you do.
Well there are people who actually learn from experience and change their minds.
Yes. That's why people tend to leave the left as they grow older.
You do seem to have some fixation about "the left". I have found that most people who fixate on "the left" or "the right" are unable to think outside of their small-minded narrow viewpoint.
It is obvious you care more about some abstract vision of "civil liberty" than the health and welfare of the Austrian people.
It is precisely the health and welfare of the Austrian people that I am thinking about.
Sure Jan. Keep telling yourself that.
 

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
Metaphor said:
If you do not see fear as one of the drivers of government policies around COVID--policies that began, in early 2020, with encouraging certain activities, but now include locking down entire countries and forcing vaccinations on adults, all I can say is we clearly have very different perceptions of the world.
I am sure there are some people who would support anything. That isn't the point. The point is the number of people who would not have considered forced vaccinations under any circumstances in 2020 are now not only indifferent to the possibility, some are expressing support for it.
I feel as if I should be more suspicious and not less, frankly. When Toni proposed indefinite house arrest for the unvaccinated, I recall clarifying that even the most ardent supporters of a vaccine mandate were not proposing physically enforced vaccinations.

And, all it took was a month or two, and people are supporting that, too.


Metaphor keeps making these statement about how “these physically forced vaccinations holding people down to gie them shots agains their will were unthinkable before and now look at the tyranny!” (Parahrased)

And yet,

NYTimes article said:
The health minister said the government felt confident a law could be drawn up within the bounds of the Constitution, citing a previous national mandate for smallpox that was passed in 1948.

Metaphor ignores that
1. This is certainly not the first time Humanity has been faced with forcing pugnacious people to stop risking others, and
2. I don’t think they are talking about “physically forcing” anything. All the articles point to a lockdown for those who refuse to protect society. That is not the same as “forcing a medical procedure on people.” As Metaphor certainly knows. The “mandate” is that if you want to go out in society, you can’t be a danger to society.

I’m not sure why someone would want to make claims about the mandate that are not accurate to what the mandate contains, and make claims about history that are not accurate to what history contains. But here we are.
 
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Metaphor

Contributor
Metaphor ignores that
1. This is certainly not the first time Humanity has been faced with forcing pugnacious people to stop risking others, and
Non. That something has happened before in history does not mean that people in general in 2020 thought that adults should have medical procedures forced on them. Historically, most people accepted slavery as the natural order and not immoral. That does not mean that most people in 2020 thought that.
2. I don’t think they are talking about “physically forcing” anything. All the articles point to a lockdown for those who refuse to protect society.
Non. The article is talking about getting vaccinated by law, and being fined if you are not vaccinated. The lockdown in Austria is in force for everyone, vaccinated or not.

That is not the same as “forcing a medical procedure on people.” As Metaphor certainly knows. The “mandate” is that if you want to go out in society, you can’t be a danger to society.
Austria has not proposed kidnapping people and forcibly injecting them. Yet.

I’m not sure why someone would want to make claims about the mandate that are not accurate to what the mandate contains, and make claims about history that are not accurate to what history contains. But here we are.
I made no such claims and you need to read my posts more carefully.
 
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