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Ayn Rand Institute takes PPP loan

 
 
 
I'm not sure I understand in this case. It's a loan, yes? So if they repay it with interest, then to what extent is it a bailout?

That said, I am not suggesting this program is consistent with Ayn Rand Institute values. I'm not really informed enough to comment. I know a little bit about objectivism, but not enough to know what that means for the Institute in this case.
 
krypton iodine sulfur said:
I'm not sure I understand in this case. It's a loan, yes? So if they repay it with interest, then to what extent is it a bailout?

That said, I am not suggesting this program is consistent with Ayn Rand Institute values. I'm not really informed enough to comment. I know a little bit about objectivism, but not enough to know what that means for the Institute in this case.
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To be fair to the anarcho-capitalist types -- or "minarchists", whatever -- is that they generally take the position that in the context of a big, powerful state, it isn't wrong to play within that set of rules. So, they wouldn't just refuse government money out of spite. Which isn't entirely unreasonable.
 
krypton iodine sulfur said:
I'm not sure I understand in this case. It's a loan, yes? So if they repay it with interest, then to what extent is it a bailout?

That said, I am not suggesting this program is consistent with Ayn Rand Institute values. I'm not really informed enough to comment. I know a little bit about objectivism, but not enough to know what that means for the Institute in this case.
Click to expand...

It originates as a loan with better than market terms (6 months payment deferred, 1% interest, 5 year amortization, no personal guaranties). But if follow the parameters (spend 60% on payroll, follow other stipulation's): it gets converted to a grant.
 
Harry Bosch said:
krypton iodine sulfur said:
I'm not sure I understand in this case. It's a loan, yes? So if they repay it with interest, then to what extent is it a bailout?

That said, I am not suggesting this program is consistent with Ayn Rand Institute values. I'm not really informed enough to comment. I know a little bit about objectivism, but not enough to know what that means for the Institute in this case.
Click to expand...

It originates as a loan with better than market terms (6 months payment deferred, 1% interest, 5 year amortization, no personal guaranties). But if follow the parameters (spend 60% on payroll, follow other stipulation's): it gets converted to a grant.
Click to expand...

When I looked up the program, I thought it read that way, but assumed I wasn't understanding correctly. That seems like a... generous arrangement.
 
krypton iodine sulfur said:
I'm not sure I understand in this case. It's a loan, yes? So if they repay it with interest, then to what extent is it a bailout?

That said, I am not suggesting this program is consistent with Ayn Rand Institute values. I'm not really informed enough to comment. I know a little bit about objectivism, but not enough to know what that means for the Institute in this case.
Click to expand...

Sorry, no. it's a loan that does not have to be repaid if certain conditions are met. My wife has become somewhat of an expert on the PPP system for her employer so I get the blow-by-blow steps in the process from her almost daily.
 
krypton iodine sulfur said:
Harry Bosch said:
krypton iodine sulfur said:
I'm not sure I understand in this case. It's a loan, yes? So if they repay it with interest, then to what extent is it a bailout?

That said, I am not suggesting this program is consistent with Ayn Rand Institute values. I'm not really informed enough to comment. I know a little bit about objectivism, but not enough to know what that means for the Institute in this case.
Click to expand...

It originates as a loan with better than market terms (6 months payment deferred, 1% interest, 5 year amortization, no personal guaranties). But if follow the parameters (spend 60% on payroll, follow other stipulation's): it gets converted to a grant.
Click to expand...

When I looked up the program, I thought it read that way, but assumed I wasn't understanding correctly. That seems like a... generous arrangement.
Click to expand...

It's to cover payroll. But I would prefer they skip the middleman and give the money directly to employees.
 
If I recall correctly, the objectivist position is always that if you can take something from the government, then do it. They see it as most of the time you are getting back what they took from you in the first place, and the rest of the time it is "homesteading" property that the government stole and should not have in the first place.
 
Jason Harvestdancer said:
If I recall correctly, the objectivist position is always that if you can take something from the government, then do it. They see it as most of the time you are getting back what they took from you in the first place, and the rest of the time it is "homesteading" property that the government stole and should not have in the first place.
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Can you elaborate on this a bit? Let's say that person A stole from me many years ago, but that money got spent. Person A then steals from person B and offers person B's stolen goods to me. Why is it OK to accept the stolen goods, per objectivist philosophy? Wouldn't the moral thing be to accept the stolen goods, but try to return them to their owner(s)?
 
Jason Harvestdancer said:
If I recall correctly, the objectivist position is always that if you can take something from the government, then do it. They see it as most of the time you are getting back what they took from you in the first place, and the rest of the time it is "homesteading" property that the government stole and should not have in the first place.
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So basically they are participating in government, paying taxes, receiving benefits and doing everything everyone else does. They are just going "nyah" and wearing a boot on their head while they do it.
 
blastula said:
krypton iodine sulfur said:
When I looked up the program, I thought it read that way, but assumed I wasn't understanding correctly. That seems like a... generous arrangement.
Click to expand...

It's to cover payroll. But I would prefer they skip the middleman and give the money directly to employees.
Click to expand...

The purpose of the program was to encourage companies to not lay off employees until the economy recovers. Local unemployment offices are just not staffed up to process all the applications that came in (at least in Oregon and Washington). It's been a huge problem. I got PPP for my company. It was one of the most emotional times of my life. My banker (she's a close personal friend and trusted adviser) struggled to get the PPP for us. Despite very long hours on her part, we missed getting PPP in round one. I was very upset. She felt terrible. Round two was stressful. But she came through, and got it for us. She told me that they worked 13 or 14 hours a day to get the money out.

Now we are in the forgivness stage. It should be a much easier process with less stress. We hope...
 
blastula said:
krypton iodine sulfur said:
When I looked up the program, I thought it read that way, but assumed I wasn't understanding correctly. That seems like a... generous arrangement.
Click to expand...

It's to cover payroll. But I would prefer they skip the middleman and give the money directly to employees.
Click to expand...
That is exactly what should have been done. Cut out the businesses entirely, at least from the employee pay angle.
 
Axulus said:
Jason Harvestdancer said:
If I recall correctly, the objectivist position is always that if you can take something from the government, then do it. They see it as most of the time you are getting back what they took from you in the first place, and the rest of the time it is "homesteading" property that the government stole and should not have in the first place.
Click to expand...

Can you elaborate on this a bit? Let's say that person A stole from me many years ago, but that money got spent. Person A then steals from person B and offers person B's stolen goods to me. Why is it OK to accept the stolen goods, per objectivist philosophy? Wouldn't the moral thing be to accept the stolen goods, but try to return them to their owner(s)?
Click to expand...
Jason is a libertarian, he doesn't believe in morality, just the personal bottom line.
 
McConnell's Wife's Family Business Appears on Trump Admin's List of Companies That Received Most PPP Money

A shipping business started by Department of Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao's family received at least $350,000 in loans set aside for companies struggling as a result of the coronavirus pandemic, according to data published Monday by the U.S. Small Business Administration.

Chao's parents launched Foremost Group in New York in 1964. The company is currently run by her father and sister, according to the company's website. Its application for a Paycheck Protection Program loan was approved on April 15, the SBA's data shows. While the exact loan amount was not included in the report, the SBA said a loan between $350,000 and $1 million was approved, enabling the company to save 20 jobs.
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Jimmy Higgins said:
blastula said:
krypton iodine sulfur said:
When I looked up the program, I thought it read that way, but assumed I wasn't understanding correctly. That seems like a... generous arrangement.
Click to expand...

It's to cover payroll. But I would prefer they skip the middleman and give the money directly to employees.
Click to expand...
That is exactly what should have been done. Cut out the businesses entirely, at least from the employee pay angle.
Click to expand...

I think that the problem here is that local governments were just not staffed up to handle the unemployment claims as they were. The government wanted PPP to be distributed through the banks. Secondly, the program was also established to cover rent, mortgage interest, and utility expenses. Again, government is too small to make the direct payments possible to all parties. Companies already pay their workers, utilities and rent and had no problem continuing to do so.
 
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