Babel - God invents war - Is god also responsible for sin now?

[Jimmy Higgins]

So in the Science forum, there is a lot of talk about the Bible. I thought maybe, just maybe, it'd be better off in the Religious Texts forum.

One of the things that happens in Genesis is the whole incident with a particular tower. God sees man building a tower and becoming a mighty people. They look at each other and say:
³'Hey, let's build a tower to the heavens and become godly.' ⁴'But didn't that end badly the last time it was tried back in the Garden?' ⁵'Fuck it, otherwise we'll just spread out all over the Earth.' ⁶So it was agreed.

God sees this and he totally freaks out.

⁷God came down and saw what man was accomplishing. ⁸'Shit! If they can build a tall tower out of stone and mortar, there ain't nuthin' they can't do. ⁹Come, let us go down and confuse the fuck out of them, and spread them across the world so that they can war with each other.'

God invents war among mankind to prevent mankind from becoming like gods! I really hadn't thought of it like this before, but it seems like a reasonable spin on the outcome of what god does in the story. He fears man escaping the demigod phase and becoming gods, therefore, he manipulates them so that instead of acting as one race, they act as several smaller groups and we know how this ends. Lots of death.

Which then begs the question, how in the heck is man now responsible for sin? It appears that mankind has righted the ship after the Great Flood and is acting as one, doing great things. God has to manipulate man, break them into groups in order to hold mankind back. This isn't done because mankind has err'd morally. It is done to protect god's own intentions.

What a fucking douche!

Comments?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It's standard behavior for a dictator, which is what the God of the OT was modeled off of. Set your minions against each other and they'll be too busy with their own petty little battles to unite against you.

One could also say that just because we couldn't communicate, that doesn't mean that we needed to war with each other. We chose to war with each other. Free will, bitches.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Which then begs the question, how in the heck is man now responsible for sin?

The same way, and for the same reason, that wives who don't keep a perfectly clean kitchen are responsible for their beatings.
Why kids who spill milk on the carpet are responsible for being whipped with an extension cord.

"I want to love you, but you make it so hard for me. I guess you WANT to go to bed without dinner. Or blankets. Because you knew what would happen if you brought home a C on your report card. Or ate a cookie between lunch and dinner. Or built a big tower in the back yard to threaten me."

 

[Thomas II]

So in the Science forum, there is a lot of talk about the Bible. I thought maybe, just maybe, it'd be better off in the Religious Texts forum.

One of the things that happens in Genesis is the whole incident with a particular tower. God sees man building a tower and becoming a mighty people. They look at each other and say:
³'Hey, let's build a tower to the heavens and become godly.' ⁴'But didn't that end badly the last time it was tried back in the Garden?' ⁵'Fuck it, otherwise we'll just spread out all over the Earth.' ⁶So it was agreed.

God sees this and he totally freaks out.

⁷God came down and saw what man was accomplishing. ⁸'Shit! If they can build a tall tower out of stone and mortar, there ain't nuthin' they can't do. ⁹Come, let us go down and confuse the fuck out of them, and spread them across the world so that they can war with each other.'

God invents war among mankind to prevent mankind from becoming like gods! I really hadn't thought of it like this before, but it seems like a reasonable spin on the outcome of what god does in the story. He fears man escaping the demigod phase and becoming gods, therefore, he manipulates them so that instead of acting as one race, they act as several smaller groups and we know how this ends. Lots of death.

Which then begs the question, how in the heck is man now responsible for sin? It appears that mankind has righted the ship after the Great Flood and is acting as one, doing great things. God has to manipulate man, break them into groups in order to hold mankind back. This isn't done because mankind has err'd morally. It is done to protect god's own intentions.

What a fucking douche!

Comments?

What's all this talk about "God" this and God that like it's a real "person"?

The word "god" is attributed to a systematic evolutionary natural process. It has the same "personality" as a wave in the ocean...

A thunder doesn't mean that God is angry...It's just a thunder, a natural event with no sense of emotion, personality, or volition.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So in the Science forum, there is a lot of talk about the Bible. I thought maybe, just maybe, it'd be better off in the Religious Texts forum.

One of the things that happens in Genesis is the whole incident with a particular tower. God sees man building a tower and becoming a mighty people. They look at each other and say:
³'Hey, let's build a tower to the heavens and become godly.' ⁴'But didn't that end badly the last time it was tried back in the Garden?' ⁵'Fuck it, otherwise we'll just spread out all over the Earth.' ⁶So it was agreed.

God sees this and he totally freaks out.

⁷God came down and saw what man was accomplishing. ⁸'Shit! If they can build a tall tower out of stone and mortar, there ain't nuthin' they can't do. ⁹Come, let us go down and confuse the fuck out of them, and spread them across the world so that they can war with each other.'

God invents war among mankind to prevent mankind from becoming like gods! I really hadn't thought of it like this before, but it seems like a reasonable spin on the outcome of what god does in the story. He fears man escaping the demigod phase and becoming gods, therefore, he manipulates them so that instead of acting as one race, they act as several smaller groups and we know how this ends. Lots of death.

Which then begs the question, how in the heck is man now responsible for sin? It appears that mankind has righted the ship after the Great Flood and is acting as one, doing great things. God has to manipulate man, break them into groups in order to hold mankind back. This isn't done because mankind has err'd morally. It is done to protect god's own intentions.

What a fucking douche!

Comments?

What's all this talk about "God" this and God that like it's a real "person"?

The word "god" is attributed to a systematic evolutionary natural process. It has the same "personality" as a wave in the ocean...

A thunder doesn't mean that God is angry...It's just a thunder, a natural event with no sense of emotion, personality, or volition.

God is a literary character in a story. Talking about him and the consequences of his actions is a viable thing.

 

[Thomas II]

What's all this talk about "God" this and God that like it's a real "person"?

The word "god" is attributed to a systematic evolutionary natural process. It has the same "personality" as a wave in the ocean...

A thunder doesn't mean that God is angry...It's just a thunder, a natural event with no sense of emotion, personality, or volition.

God is a literary character in a story. Talking about him and the consequences of his actions is a viable thing.

Ok...Sure...

 

[Angry Floof]

So in the Science forum, there is a lot of talk about the Bible. I thought maybe, just maybe, it'd be better off in the Religious Texts forum.

One of the things that happens in Genesis is the whole incident with a particular tower. God sees man building a tower and becoming a mighty people. They look at each other and say:
³'Hey, let's build a tower to the heavens and become godly.' ⁴'But didn't that end badly the last time it was tried back in the Garden?' ⁵'Fuck it, otherwise we'll just spread out all over the Earth.' ⁶So it was agreed.

God sees this and he totally freaks out.

⁷God came down and saw what man was accomplishing. ⁸'Shit! If they can build a tall tower out of stone and mortar, there ain't nuthin' they can't do. ⁹Come, let us go down and confuse the fuck out of them, and spread them across the world so that they can war with each other.'

God invents war among mankind to prevent mankind from becoming like gods! I really hadn't thought of it like this before, but it seems like a reasonable spin on the outcome of what god does in the story. He fears man escaping the demigod phase and becoming gods, therefore, he manipulates them so that instead of acting as one race, they act as several smaller groups and we know how this ends. Lots of death.

Which then begs the question, how in the heck is man now responsible for sin? It appears that mankind has righted the ship after the Great Flood and is acting as one, doing great things. God has to manipulate man, break them into groups in order to hold mankind back. This isn't done because mankind has err'd morally. It is done to protect god's own intentions.

What a fucking douche!

Comments?

What's all this talk about "God" this and God that like it's a real "person"?

The word "god" is attributed to a systematic evolutionary natural process. It has the same "personality" as a wave in the ocean...

A thunder doesn't mean that God is angry...It's just a thunder, a natural event with no sense of emotion, personality, or volition.

As long as so many people believe in a literal God-person/story, It is useful to question it hypothetically.

Besides, God IS real... God is that diseased collective entity made of millions of heads (and attitudes and actions and choices...)

 

[Thomas II]

What's all this talk about "God" this and God that like it's a real "person"?

The word "god" is attributed to a systematic evolutionary natural process. It has the same "personality" as a wave in the ocean...

A thunder doesn't mean that God is angry...It's just a thunder, a natural event with no sense of emotion, personality, or volition.

As long as so many people believe in a literal God-person/story, It is useful to question it hypothetically.

Besides, God IS real... God is that diseased collective entity made of millions of heads (and attitudes and actions and choices...)

The book character is diseased, and anthropomorphic, but the "collective entity" (all that is) is just nature evolving, and all those "attitudes, actions, and choices" are adaptations...

 

[Angry Floof]

As long as so many people believe in a literal God-person/story, It is useful to question it hypothetically.

Besides, God IS real... God is that diseased collective entity made of millions of heads (and attitudes and actions and choices...)

The book character is diseased, and anthropomorphic, but the "collective entity" (all that is) is just nature evolving, and all those "attitudes, actions, and choices" are adaptations...

Yes, exactly, all the ingredients for culture, which acts back on us like a big, nebulous, impinging entity. Our culture is diseased. That stupid, petty, violent, incoherent psycho from the Bible lives and breathes among us whether we like it or not. He... IT... lives in that vast space between compartmentalized bullshit in the heads of millions, millions that we have to deal with and try to vote out of office and abide by the bathroom laws and laws against solar power because "it would use up all the sun" enacted by the fucking imbeciles and their imbecile constituents.

 

[Thomas II]

The book character is diseased, and anthropomorphic, but the "collective entity" (all that is) is just nature evolving, and all those "attitudes, actions, and choices" are adaptations...

Yes, exactly, all the ingredients for culture, which acts back on us like a big, nebulous, impinging entity. Our culture is diseased. That stupid, petty, violent, incoherent psycho from the Bible lives and breathes among us whether we like it or not. He... IT... lives in that vast space between compartmentalized bullshit in the heads of millions, millions that we have to deal with and try to vote out of office and abide by the bathroom laws and laws against solar power because "it would use up all the sun" enacted by the fucking imbeciles and their imbecile constituents.

I hear you...Imagine, Muslims have to pray five times a day, as they immerse themselves deeper and deeper into the exaltation of that imaginary character...It has to affect their minds...It's madness...

 

[Angry Floof]

Yes, exactly, all the ingredients for culture, which acts back on us like a big, nebulous, impinging entity. Our culture is diseased. That stupid, petty, violent, incoherent psycho from the Bible lives and breathes among us whether we like it or not. He... IT... lives in that vast space between compartmentalized bullshit in the heads of millions, millions that we have to deal with and try to vote out of office and abide by the bathroom laws and laws against solar power because "it would use up all the sun" enacted by the fucking imbeciles and their imbecile constituents.

I hear you...Imagine, Muslims have to pray five times a day, as they immerse themselves deeper and deeper into the exaltation of that imaginary character...It has to affect their minds...It's madness...

It's affected the whole world. We're basically a zombie world at this point. In fact, I'm going to start referring to fear mongering and conservative rhetoric as "the infection" from now on.

(I'm watching 28 Days Later right now.)

 

[Thomas II]

BTW, when I say "It has the same "personality" as a wave in the ocean" we should not forget that a wave has A LOT behind it...like EVERYTHING...

 

[Atheos]

Getting back to the OP and the somewhat creative translation of the first few verses of Genesis 11, I think it's a bit of a stretch to go directly from confounding languages to inventing war. In fact I'd go so far as to say that divergent language wasn't what caused the invention of war.

According to the buybull the first war was a purely religious war that decimated fully 1/4 of the earth's population. I'm of course talking about Cain killing Abel because God "had respect" to Abel's meat offering but not to Cain's vegetable one. Regardless of whether one agrees with this assessment of the stories it's demonstrable that the inability to communicate is not a prerequisite to war. Many wars have been waged between civilizations that spoke the same language.

When I read the Babel myth today I can't help thinking it's little else besides a bedtime story. "Daddy, why do those people use words we can't understand?" It got more sophisticated with the retelling and eventually fully grown adults who heard it as children began to believe it was true. Same thing with the Noah myth that preceded it.

 

[DBT]

A perfect omnipotent/omniscient creator is entirely responsible for the state and condition of what is created. If evil exists, evil is a part of the creator and consequently the creator is not perfect...if perfect means an absence of evil.

 

[Learner]

A perfect omnipotent/omniscient creator is entirely responsible for the state and condition of what is created.

If believers are to be honest they would have to agree with you here.

If evil exists, evil is a part of the creator and consequently the creator is not perfect...if perfect means an absence of evil.

Or you could also look at it as;The potential of evil exists only in physical self aware beings. Evil being part of the most extreme end of selfishness.To name a few;self gratification,self preservation,self seeking ego and so on. The other extreme would be pure love (perfection),selflessness,self sacrifice,altruism,generosity etc. It is only an opinion mind you.(Cheers peez)

 

[Keith&Co.]

Or you could also look at it as;The potential of evil exists only in physical self aware beings.

How would you justify looking at it that way, though?

The god described in the OT is very much a self-serving ego. Just look at the first four commandments.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Getting back to the OP and the somewhat creative translation of the first few verses of Genesis 11, I think it's a bit of a stretch to go directly from confounding languages to inventing war. In fact I'd go so far as to say that divergent language wasn't what caused the invention of war.

Agreed. God doesn't say "Let them war with each other." However, the whole intent it not just to confuse them, but to muddle man's ability to work together. This leads almost directly to conflict.

According to the buybull the first war was a purely religious war that decimated fully 1/4 of the earth's population. I'm of course talking about Cain killing Abel because God "had respect" to Abel's meat offering but not to Cain's vegetable one.

Well that and God was silent over Cain's clear disappointment.

Regardless of whether one agrees with this assessment of the stories it's demonstrable that the inability to communicate is not a prerequisite to war. Many wars have been waged between civilizations that spoke the same language.

But we are talking about conflict. The writers of the story clearly know the result of the warring and saying it starts after mankind is split up by Congress, I mean God.

When I read the Babel myth today I can't help thinking it's little else besides a bedtime story. "Daddy, why do those people use words we can't understand?" It got more sophisticated with the retelling and eventually fully grown adults who heard it as children began to believe it was true. Same thing with the Noah myth that preceded it.

Yeah, my interpretation is a stretch. I suppose it comes down to whether it sticks to just language or why mankind is at each others throats.

 

[Thomas II]

Getting back to the OP and the somewhat creative translation of the first few verses of Genesis 11, I think it's a bit of a stretch to go directly from confounding languages to inventing war. In fact I'd go so far as to say that divergent language wasn't what caused the invention of war.

According to the buybull the first war was a purely religious war that decimated fully 1/4 of the earth's population. I'm of course talking about Cain killing Abel because God "had respect" to Abel's meat offering but not to Cain's vegetable one. Regardless of whether one agrees with this assessment of the stories it's demonstrable that the inability to communicate is not a prerequisite to war. Many wars have been waged between civilizations that spoke the same language.

When I read the Babel myth today I can't help thinking it's little else besides a bedtime story. "Daddy, why do those people use words we can't understand?" It got more sophisticated with the retelling and eventually fully grown adults who heard it as children began to believe it was true. Same thing with the Noah myth that preceded it.

Yes, the mythology of the TRICKSTER http://schoolworkhelper.net/carl-jungs-archetype-the-trickster/

Alan Watts on the role of the Trickster...



Take what you can out of it...

 

[DBT]

Or you could also look at it as;The potential of evil exists only in physical self aware beings.

More specifically...'evil' stemming from self interest, decisions and action taken at the expense of others, ie, with insufficient empathy. Which an Omniscient/Omnipotent Creator should have no trouble correcting unless these attributes are deliberately included in human psychology. Which implies the Creator intended evil to emerge.

 

[Learner]

How would you justify looking at it that way, though?

I've always believed this notion outside of religion when I was agnostic.

The god described in the OT is very much a self-serving ego. Just look at the first four commandments.

Honestly I'm not sure. There is one thing though. According to the OT, the 'Ten commandments was only handed down to Moses much 'later.' The commandments were 'not' there from the beginning. These commandments were made 'after' many wars and many evils were done.