Barbaric

[aupmanyav]

If our society, government and judicial system deems it to be illegal and immoral to kill someone for any reason other than self defence, then the same standards apply to the government that sets these moral and legal standards......which, if it is to applied without hypocrisy, does not permit the government to take someone who is locked away, no longer a threat to the public out an execute them for reasons of cost, expediency or to set an example.

That is not the case in our society. It is neither immoral nor illegal to give death sentence to people who have done heinous crimes. People want it that way.

 

[aupmanyav]

No, they are still just some folks. Lucky, well placed, wealthy, or some other stupid thing people use to trick others into thinking they aren't just some folks when they are...

What is wrong with their being well-placed? They are people who have been selected by our senior-most judges (the Collegium, Chief Justice of the Indian Supreme Court and four of his senior-most colleagues, some of whom will grace the position of the Chief Justice of Indian Supreme Court in their time) for being honest and knowledgeable in their field. They have come up the ladder over many years. Their decisions have been watched by the Collegium. The Constitution has given them great responsibilities. We know who will be the Chief Justice of India till 27 May 2033. The list has already been decided by the tradition of seniority (barring someone's untimely death).

The next eight Chief Justices of India: 2025 to 2033 - Supreme Court Observer

If the seniority principle is followed, these eight Judges will lead the Supreme Court of India as Chief Justice till 2033

www.scobserver.in

Note: Seniority is the only principle in appointment of Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of India. The Government cannot change it easily. That will require 2/3 majority in both houses of Parliament (US equivalent, Congress and Senate).

 

[Jarhyn]

What is wrong with their being well-placed

"What is wrong with their seeking a position for prestige", more like. But, you can trust a dishonest person to change the framing without acknowledging the problems of the other framing before trying it...

To clarify what I mean here, there is a clear and obvious dishonest tactic going on and I'm going to make a whole post just about that ONE thing because it's something people should be aware of if they are not already:

Let's say I say "what you are doing kills people, Carl", and then Carl says "what, you don't want some peace and quiet", as if that changes anything about the "that kills people" clause.

It's kind of the inverse of "I'm not going to check IDs at the polling place because I know literally everyone on my sheet personally", and then someone responding with "BuT ThEn ThEy MiGhT FrAuD", trying to attach a "clause that cannot be ignored" rather than brushing the clause that cannot be ignored away?

Both are bad and both are dishonest framings around the "clause that should not be ignored".

Ulterior motives (self-promotion; prestige) are quite corrupting here, especially when the position itself has benefits.

We can see this on obvious display as a mechanism just looking at the US SCOTUS, with some failure clear "there for the grift" appointments, and we can clearly see the "grift track" that put the current population of SCOTUS rogues in place.

And further, I have seen nothing to beat the rap that brutality and authoritarian law is an almost-everywhere measure of corruption and graft.

 

[thebeave]

The morality of executing prisoners that no longer pose a threat to public safety.

As I said morality is subjective. These prisoners are not a threat to society as long as they are in prison for which public money is spent. They may be a threat if they are given any remission. A life sentence practically is for 14 years. They can then apply for remission and police are happy to certify good conduct if the necessary bribe is given to them.

If our society, government and judicial system deems it to be illegal and immoral to kill someone for any reason other than self defence, then the same standards apply to the government that sets these moral and legal standards......which, if it is to applied without hypocrisy, does not permit the government to take someone who is locked away, no longer a threat to the public out an execute them for reasons of cost, expediency or to set an example.

Generally, a government can make its own rules and has rights to do things that ordinary citizens do not have. Off the top of my head, they include taking property in accordance with Eminent Domain, declare war on other nations, pardoning people for crimes, developing & owning nuclear weapons, etc. And the right to execute someone for a crime.

 

[aupmanyav]

It is a problem that India creates for itself.

How is that?

"Strictness" in such corrupt situations only opens the door for what any tabletop gamer will recognize as "lawful evil": ..

Its the more totalitarian and authoritarian societies that we can observe as the most brutal and barbaric.

But this is what I could not reply immediately. It made me think very seriously.
We have a very honest person as Prime Minister of India. He is basically a mendicant, when he was in his 20s, he had gone to Ramakrishna Mission to be inducted as a renunciate, but his request was not accepted by the Mission Head for some reason. Total assets - 400,000 USD after being a Chief Minister of a prosperous state of India, Gujarat; and 12 years as being Prime Minister of India, the fifth largest economy of the world (my son has three times the money than Modi has). The Chief Minister of our largest state, Uttar Pradesh, is a renounced mendicant and head of an important religious order. He has just about 160,000 USD after nearly 10 years in saddle. They do not have any interest even in what money they have.

But even such people have to take in inefficient and dishonest people in their cabinet because 50% of the seats in Parliament and state legislatures are reserved on basis of castes for Tribes, Dalits and other Backward Classes. Some of these people are criminals and their cases have not been decided by courts. And till the time a court does not sentence them for a minimum of 2 years in jail for some crime, they can contest elections. Even if a person is convicted, the normal ploy is to make his wife on son to contest the election. Modi cannot easily change the laws because his own party has a number of these people.

The problem will take years to be solved. It will be solved with education when voters get over the caste prejudices come to understand that they have to vote for honest and knowledgeable people. Now that is difficult. Even US electorate selected a person like Trump.

They have to declare this at the time they register their condidature.

 

[Elixir]

Backward Classes.

Just a trivia question.
WTF is a “Backward Class”?
Did they adopt that name for themselves, is it an official designation, or did you make it up and saddle them with it?
This is a sincere question, because I can’t imagine anyone proudly declaring their membership in the “Backward Class”.

The problem will take years to be solved.

I’m sure that’s true, as long as designations like “Backward Class” persist.

 

[aupmanyav]

It's kind of the inverse of "I'm not going to check IDs at the polling place because I know literally everyone on my sheet personally"

It is a requirement in Indian elections to show photo-bearing 'voter identification' slip. The voting team also has the record, It is checked by at least 2 people of the voting team and by any number of local representatives of the candidates present in the room, if they so desire. Elections all over India are held by electronic voting machines. In some constituencies, the number of candidates can exceed 30 or 40. In such cases more than one voting machine is used.

Trivia (DuckAssist): Highest Number of Candidates in an Election Constituency
Record Holder
Constituency: Modakurichi Assembly Constituency, Tamil Nadu
Election Year: 1996
Number of Candidates: 1,033
This record was set during the general election to the Tamil Nadu Legislative Assembly, where the ballot papers were provided in the form of a booklet due to the high number of candidates.

 

[Jarhyn]

We have a very honest person as Prime Minister of India

Hahaha. Nice joke. I'm not going to say you are definitely a paid shill, but I don't know for the life of me how I would distinguish the difference.

Its not shocking that you believe this. I have seen people talk about Trump's "honesty" with the same level of conviction. I fully accept Trump has hordes of such people who needed no pay to be such idiots about him, but that he also has promised to pay some to do as much. I'm not sure if I would believe he ever actually paid.

That said, it is my strong belief that in a population of over a billion, the Indian government can easily requisition enough resources to put together a few troll farms, and enough to cover reddit and every internet backwater of a forum they can find, and that other major countries do something very similar -- though Russia is almost certainly one of the bigger offenders.

I would say there is probably at least one US troll farm account, but I'm not sure. I wouldn't expect more than 2-3 active troll farm accounts on the forums, but expecting it to be exactly 0 is also unrealistic.

 

[aupmanyav]

WTF is a “Backward Class”?
Did they adopt that name for themselves, is it an official designation, or did you make it up and saddle them with it?
This is a sincere question, because I can’t imagine anyone proudly declaring their membership in the “Backward Class”.

A "Backward Caste" is the name selected for some castes by themselves and accepted by the government. They are 27% of he Indian population and get 'Affirmative Action' benefits. Whether a caste is to be designated in this manner is proposed by a state legislature and accepted or rejected by the Central government. They are people who are not counted as 'dalits' but also not counted as 'forward castes' who generally go through the sacred thread ceremony. The law was adopted in 1990 by a former Prime Minister of India, V.P.Singh to save his chair, but it did not work.
It is a coveted designation in India and people who do not belong to these castes often try to get such a certificate fraudulently. It makes getting into a college or getting a job easier because of the 'Affirmative Action' benefits (termed as Reservations in India.

 

[aupmanyav]

Hahaha. Nice joke. I'm not going to say you are definitely a paid shill, but I don't know for the life of me how I would distinguish the difference.
Its not shocking that you believe this. I have seen people talk about Trump's "honesty" with the same level of conviction.

Narendra Modi and Yogi Adityanath are two gifts of Gods to India. There is none like them in the world. I hope when Narendra Modi relinquishes his chair (perhaps in 2029), Yogi Adityanath becomes the Prime Minister of India. Yogi has made a lawless state, Uttar Prqdesh (population 234 million), into one of the fastest growing states in India.
If Uttar Pradeh was not a state of India, it would have been the sixth largest country by population in the world.
India 1.48 billion, China 1.41 billion, United States 349 million, Indonesia 288 million, Pakistan 259 million.

Narendra Modi, Yogi Adityanath

 

[Jarhyn]

Hahaha. Nice joke. I'm not going to say you are definitely a paid shill, but I don't know for the life of me how I would distinguish the difference.
Its not shocking that you believe this. I have seen people talk about Trump's "honesty" with the same level of conviction.

Narendra Modi and Yogi Adityanath are two gifts of Gods to India.

I rest my case that you are a shill, paid or otherwise.

 

[Elixir]

WTF is a “Backward Class”?
Did they adopt that name for themselves, is it an official designation, or did you make it up and saddle them with it?
This is a sincere question, because I can’t imagine anyone proudly declaring their membership in the “Backward Class”.

A "Backward Caste" is the name selected for some castes by themselves and accepted by the government. They are 27% of he Indian population and get 'Affirmative Action' benefits. Whether a caste is to be designated in this manner is proposed by a state legislature and accepted or rejected by the Central government. They are people who are not counted as 'dalits' but also not counted as 'forward castes' who generally go through the sacred thread ceremony. The law was adopted in 1990 by a former Prime Minister of India, V.P.Singh to save his chair, but it did not work.
It is a coveted designation in India and people who do not belong to these castes often try to get such a certificate fraudulently. It makes getting into a college or getting a job easier because of the 'Affirmative Action' benefits (termed as Reservations in India.

Thank you for the explanation.
All I can say is, that’s fucked up.

 

[aupmanyav]

Fastest growing states in India: Assam 45% 36.8 billion USD, Tamil Nadu 16% 33.8 billion USD, Maharashtra 9.9%, 51.9 billion USD, Uttar Pradesh 18.7% 32.4 billion USD, Gujarat 13% 31.3 billion USD

 

[DBT]

The morality of executing prisoners that no longer pose a threat to public safety.

As I said morality is subjective. These prisoners are not a threat to society as long as they are in prison for which public money is spent. They may be a threat if they are given any remission. A life sentence practically is for 14 years. They can then apply for remission and police are happy to certify good conduct if the necessary bribe is given to them.

If our society, government and judicial system deems it to be illegal and immoral to kill someone for any reason other than self defence, then the same standards apply to the government that sets these moral and legal standards......which, if it is to applied without hypocrisy, does not permit the government to take someone who is locked away, no longer a threat to the public out an execute them for reasons of cost, expediency or to set an example.

Generally, a government can make its own rules and has rights to do things that ordinary citizens do not have. Off the top of my head, they include taking property in accordance with Eminent Domain, declare war on other nations, pardoning people for crimes, developing & owning nuclear weapons, etc. And the right to execute someone for a crime.

Given that we are told that it is wrong to kill for any reason other than self defence, both legally and morally, the issue is the morality of the act of execution regardless of a government permitting itself to impose the death penalty. Sometimes governments do things without moral consideration.

 

[DBT]

Fastest growing states in India: Assam 45% 36.8 billion USD, Tamil Nadu 16% 33.8 billion USD, Maharashtra 9.9%, 51.9 billion USD, Uttar Pradesh 18.7% 32.4 billion USD, Gujarat 13% 31.3 billion USD

Growing the population is some sort of competition?

 

[Elixir]

Fastest growing states in India: Assam 45% 36.8 billion USD, Tamil Nadu 16% 33.8 billion USD, Maharashtra 9.9%, 51.9 billion USD, Uttar Pradesh 18.7% 32.4 billion USD, Gujarat 13% 31.3 billion USD

Growing the population is some sort of competition?

If you’re The Leader by some metric, that metric gains such importance that you may appear completely irrational to outsiders.

 

[DBT]

Fastest growing states in India: Assam 45% 36.8 billion USD, Tamil Nadu 16% 33.8 billion USD, Maharashtra 9.9%, 51.9 billion USD, Uttar Pradesh 18.7% 32.4 billion USD, Gujarat 13% 31.3 billion USD

Growing the population is some sort of competition?

If you’re The Leader by some metric, that metric gains such importance that you may appear completely irrational to outsiders.

Status over sustainability?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It isn't race. It's money. The justice system is strongly biased against the poor.

And the notoriety of the crime matters.

Money and notoriety play roles, of course.

Race and money are still very much linked. And yes, because of systemic racism that has benefited you and me.

Race | Death Penalty Information Center

Use of the death penalty has always reflected racial bias: the data show that who is prosecuted, sentenced, and executed depends heavily on race.

deathpenaltyinfo.org

In 82% of the studies [reviewed], race of the victim was found to influence the likelihood of being charged with capital murder or receiving the death penalty, i.e., those who murdered whites were found more likely to be sentenced to death than those who murdered blacks.

- United States General Accounting Office, Death Penalty Sentencing, February 1990

Unfortunately, our government is not remotely a credible source on whether something is racist. There is a pervasive problem that once "discrimination" is found that's normally the end of the line. Very rarely is there any attempt made to discern whether there's some other effect going on. Socioeconomic effects are huge and virtually always ignored. Disparate outcomes do not prove discrimination! You pretend to understand this but then go right back to using a disparate outcome as proof of discrimination. Be very careful of research where the researcher's job is dependent on finding the problem. The first job of any organization is to protect it's existence.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What about inert gas, Nitrogen, Argon?

It's been used in some states. What we need is a substance that kills a person and doesn't cause spasms, convulsions, or other physical signs of distress. Inhaling pure nitrogen or argon causes unconsciousness in a few seconds, but it takes quite a while to die. It seems a person lying unconscious on a gurney burns oxygen very slowly. The nitrogen is basically a sedative which allows the person to asphyxiate. Eventually lack if oxygen in muscle cells cause a few last futile contractions. The brain has long since stopped functioning on any level, but it looks unseemly.

The whole thing about Carbon Monoxide is that displaces Oxygen in the bloodstream very aggressively. I don't know if it's more effective that pure Nitrogen though.
I still think that capital punishment is a barbarism. Being locked up in jail for the rest of my life would be the ultimate. Especially if the only thing on TV was a channel of the collected speeches of Donald Trump. Clockwork Orange punishment.

Lethal, yes. But unpleasant before it reaches the lethal point, and hazardous if there's a leak.

Inert gases, however, cause no unpleasant effects and it takes a huge leak to pose any hazard. You compare the volume of the gas being used to the volume of the enclosing space, if it's a small percentage you don't care. University physics lab I was handling LN2. Instructions for a spill were about avoiding contact, inhalation hazard was not even mentioned. Even if the whole dewar had been spilled we wouldn't have suffocated. Compare to the careful observation involved with handling a few drops of a cyanide solution. (Said cyanide would be properly behaved so long as the pH was high enough. Add to acid--cyanide gas would have been produced.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

My mum had a jokey plan for when I was grown up and off her hands.

Commit some "victimless" crime that would get her 20 years. A financial crime would do it. "They" value money more than people. Go into jail, where food and lodging are provided. Read, when not working at some task.

Die before they kick you out.

I can see her logic if you can guarantee not getting shivved. Ideally, you work in the library.

Some people in Japan are doing that sort of thing, although it's usually a "violent" crime committed without violence. (Say, stick up a bank with a toy gun.)