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Bernie Sanders introduces "Stop BEZOS Act"


Two years after Amazon opened fulfilment centers in Ohio in 2015, approximately one in ten of its Ohio employees appeared to be receiving public assistance through the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program benefits program, The Daily Beast previously reported. SNAP benefits are available to individuals and families living below the poverty line.

The headline says that "its workers are on food stamps", but the article clarifies that it is only 10%? Hardly honest headline writing. And never mind that many of the SNAP eligible workers only work part time or that it is, as I pointed out before, impossible to avoid some workers being SNAP-eligible as eligibility cutoff scales linearly with number of children.

Oh, by I must be put on the ignore list because I call phands out on his BS.
 
Not to mention that Derec has never had kids nor apparently never talked to any real human beings that do aside from his own parents, if he even talks to them.

Children are fucking expensive, and it's not like SNAP or any other program that offsets that cost will fill the gap. With each additional child, the gap gets even harder to bridge, and regardless of what he thinks, real humans in the real world -as opposed to his ridiculous mental characterizations of them- actually tend to love their children. So all more children is going to mean for the majority of real families out there is more hardship, pain, and even deeper poverty and starvation.

But Derec does have a point that people without resources shouldn't be popping out dozens of babies and then expecting the rest of us to pay for them, while they retain exclusive parental rights over them.
 
The correct course for all children is to ensure that they get food, shelter, and education. How is this beyond you? If their parents can't pay, then someone has to, or else we end up with more poor , unemployed criminals.

Sure, the system should absorb the children and make sure they are fed and sheltered and educated, but that doesn't mean the parents should be excused for having them and forcing this onto the system. This is like burning all of your possessions and then begging on the street for food. Yes, it would be nice to give you food, because you are starving and suffering, but that doesn't excuse that you've created the situation and added yourself to those who had no choice but to end up in that situation through external misfortune.

Derec makes a good point that we shouldn't give incentive to have children. We just need to find a way to do that without leading to poor and starving kids. Encourage people NOT to have kids. Why are single people who never have kids not rewarded for it? They should be. The earth is overpopulated by humans, not underpopulated by humans. It once made sense to encourage the population to grow. It no longer does.
 
Unless you have a foolproof method for identifying people who are going to have children they cannot afford and a foolproof method of preventing them from having children, your preference is pretty much useless as a practical guide towards policy.

There are certainly ways to reduce the likelihood. Why must a system be foolproof to be worthwhile?
At the very least, we should "stop digging". That means, stop subsidizing poor people to have more kids by giving them more money the more children they have.
There is very little credible evidence that in the USA, people receiving income support have more children to get more funds. And more importantly, why should the innocents (the children) suffer?
 
Not to mention that Derec has never had kids nor apparently never talked to any real human beings that do aside from his own parents, if he even talks to them.

Children are fucking expensive, and it's not like SNAP or any other program that offsets that cost will fill the gap. With each additional child, the gap gets even harder to bridge, and regardless of what he thinks, real humans in the real world -as opposed to his ridiculous mental characterizations of them- actually tend to love their children. So all more children is going to mean for the majority of real families out there is more hardship, pain, and even deeper poverty and starvation.

But Derec does have a point that people without resources shouldn't be popping out dozens of babies and then expecting the rest of us to pay for them, while they retain exclusive parental rights over them.

The argument put forth by Bernie here seems to be that the rest of us shouldn't pay for them but rather the companies that hire workers should be paying for them. Every time an employee has a kid, these big companies should immediately give them a pay raise to put their income above the new, higher threshold that qualifies them for any government benefits.

What company would want to hire a worker with kids (or planning to have kids) for the lower wage jobs in such a scenario? What company would dare hire people looking only for part time work? Want to work part time so you can spend more time with your kids? Too bad. Full time or nothing.
 
The correct course for all children is to ensure that they get food, shelter, and education. How is this beyond you? If their parents can't pay, then someone has to, or else we end up with more poor , unemployed criminals.

Sure, the system should absorb the children and make sure they are fed and sheltered and educated, but that doesn't mean the parents should be excused for having them and forcing this onto the system. This is like burning all of your possessions and then begging on the street for food. Yes, it would be nice to give you food, because you are starving and suffering, but that doesn't excuse that you've created the situation and added yourself to those who had no choice but to end up in that situation through external misfortune.

Derec makes a good point that we shouldn't give incentive to have children. We just need to find a way to do that without leading to poor and starving kids. Encourage people NOT to have kids. Why are single people who never have kids not rewarded for it? They should be. The earth is overpopulated by humans, not underpopulated by humans. It once made sense to encourage the population to grow. It no longer does.

Wait wait wait... You think there is a way, outside of spending money on comprehensive sex education, to disincentize having kids that doesn't involve either taking away children (which would be met by violent resistance), or leaving those children to be uneducated, poor, and unsheltered?

The reality remans that the choices open to us as a species are either taking away children, paying for the children, or leaving them to grow up as criminals and/or slaves.

Regardless, leaving the children to grow up destitute is clearly NOT the answer, and however you want to paint that as "incentivizing having children", it still remains to us as the only option that doesn't fuck us all in the ass
 
The argument put forth by Bernie here seems to be that the rest of us shouldn't pay for them but rather the companies that hire workers should be paying for them. Every time an employee has a kid, these big companies should immediately give them a pay raise to put their income above the new, higher threshold that qualifies them for any government benefits

I'm with you on this point. The companies shouldn't have to even know (much less care) that the employees have children, and shouldn't have to consider or calculate what a "living wage" is. They should pay what the market price is. My other side of that, is that the employees should be getting assistance from the government (UBI) so they will have better bargaining power with the employer, so the employer can't exploit them. That then shifts the burden for these kids away to society at large, who can better absorb it (because its all of us). But the issue then remains about having the kids in the first place.
 
Jarhyn said:
Regardless, leaving the children to grow up destitute is clearly NOT the answer, and however you want to paint that as "incentivizing having children", it still remains to us as the only option that doesn't fuck us all in the ass

There are lots of ways to encourage people not to have children. You could at the very least make getting snipped free for anyone who wants to. You could spread good sex education and distribute condoms (free for everybody). And you could even reward people with money if you wanted to for not having kids. You could also take kids away from parents and adopt them out if they are really abusing the system, so those kids can at least grow up with the resources they need.
 
Jarhyn said:
Regardless, leaving the children to grow up destitute is clearly NOT the answer, and however you want to paint that as "incentivizing having children", it still remains to us as the only option that doesn't fuck us all in the ass

There are lots of ways to encourage people not to have children. You could at the very least make getting snipped free for anyone who wants to. You could spread good sex education and distribute condoms (free for everybody). And you could even reward people with money if you wanted to for not having kids. You could also take kids away from parents and adopt them out if they are really abusing the system, so those kids can at least grow up with the resources they need.

And none of that deals with the problem of the kids we already have that are going to grow up today destitute and uneducated, except stealing children from their homes, which isn't really an option, and either way, it isn't really an incentive regardless (because public assistance doesn't offset the cost of raising a child). And the rest of it is unlikely that such efforts will reach the segments of the population having kids they can't afford, because of the education gap.

The question still becomes "what do we do to ensure every child is sheltered, fed, and educated?" Because every child should be seen sheltered, fed, and educated.
 
Amazon says part-time workers aren't paid as much, but full time does just fine. Ponder how much work is performed by part-time workers.

I would also question the significance of the $1 trillion value. The aggregate share value is $1 trillion, but what can Amazon do with that? Nothing. They got their money in the IPO.

Then, on the other hand, we've been told a minimum wage doesn't work... but also that people who make low wages don't work hard...

Is there a right-wing solution to poor wages? Or are poor wages the right-wing solution to lifting profits?

The "right wing" solution is something akin to a UBI or negative income tax (proposed by Milton Friedman, for example), along with creating a robust, dynamic economy with a low unemployment rate so that workers can easily find other job options if they want to quit, along with companies bidding up wages to attract enough qualified workers (which happens when we are at full employment. The fastest wage growth in the recent decades occurred at the end of the 90's when the economy was booming. We seem to be approaching that point.)

Universal basic income is what is needed. Not more government interference in employment contracts.

It's unconstitutional and undemocratic to pass laws designed to punish specific individuals.

It's unconstitutional and undemocratic to pass laws designed to punish specific individuals.

No, but you can pass laws to punish specific practices and you can then reference specific individuals who perform these practices in order to explain their negative effects and justify why these practices need to be punished.

I also agree that some sort of UBI is the better solution. If a given job is only worth $2/hour, then only pay people $2/hour to perform it. This shouldn't impact the ability of people working at it to feed and house their family, though.

A UBI subsidizes low wages. Anything that the government subsidizes the economy will produce more of. If you put in a UBI the economy will respond by lowering wages.

Anything that the government subsidizes someone will eventually demonize to get rid of.

If the government has to subsidize something we should take it for what it is, a sign that the economy doesn't want it.

But left on its own, the economy is short-sighted and relatively stupid. The "right wing" solution is to allow the economy to operate on its own, without adult supervision because it will self-regulate. But this is a pipe dream that has been explored repeatedly.

For example, left on its own, the economy doesn't do infrastructure well at all.

Last week I watched the Comcast crew bury fiber optic cable in my front yard. Last year I watched the AT&T crew bury fiber optic cable in my front yard. This was only six months after the Google crew buried their fiber optic cable in my front yard. I have now 3 fiber optic cables in my front yard. Why are they there? Because competition and competitive pressures drove them there. Is it efficient? No, it is inefficient, obviously.

Likewise, left on its own, the economy doesn't do health care, education, and jurisprudence very well.

Among the other things that the short-sighted, rather stupid economy doesn't do well is to protect society from the economy itself.

Capitalism is successful because it channels an otherwise destructive sin of man, greed, into a constructive behavior. But like society itself, the economy has to be policed. The economy has no use for the old, the disabled and the young. The economy and its greed are satisfied by selling dangerous products, by fouling the air and the water, by spoiling the land and by working workers to death, by hours and by ignoring their safety. Slavery and child labor make sense to the economy because they lower the costs of labor and the price of the goods produced.


The other thing that the economy doesn't do well is to distribute the gains from the economy when it's left alone. There is no natural mechanism in capitalism that determines the best distribution of the gains, of the income to the various participants in the economy. Rather it is determined by social mores and the very structure that forms the economy. A structure put in place and largely maintained by the government.

There has to an adult in the room. One who will channel the greed, who will police the economy to punish and prevent the bad behavior and who will provide the structure of the economy that will produce the best results in the long run and will distribute the gains from the economy in the best interests of society. And by that I mean to more evenly distribute the gains from the economy to all who participate in it, rather than just to over-reward the 1% of the wealthiest, as the "right wing" solution does.

Finally, I will get back to the OP. We need to change the structure of the economy to reverse the income inequality that we are seeing, not to shoot another magic bullet at the problem that will get the hopes up of the poor and the middle class, only to have it fail in the long term. You will have to tax the rich to do it and you will start the same kind of battle that we saw against the Affordable Care Act.

These types of programs should be paid for by the people who benefit from them to make them bulletproof against such demonization. This is what has preserved Social Security against eighty years of constant attacks by the wealthy trying to end the half of the payroll tax paid by the employers. We have to increase the wages of the poor and the middle class to allow them the ability to pay for more of their way in the world. The current "right wing" solution is to intentionally suppress the wages of the poor and the middle class and then to complain that they can't pay their own way and that they depend too much on the government.

The income inequality has been build up over the years by changing the structure of the economy and by changing the social mores to accept the increased inequality as the mysterious and unknowable working of the free market economy to reward those who are really important to the economy, the wealthy investors and the financial sector, the banks, the insurance companies and the real estate brokers, the rentiers, the 2%'rs who take a portion of every transaction.


It isn't the least bit mysterious what happened, of course. It was the result of carefully planned attacks on the poor and the middle class to suppress their wages to increase profits. To make them so afraid of losing their jobs that they won't demand higher wages. To eliminate the economic structure that gave workers the ability to negotiate collectively, the unions, against the giant corporations that the economic structure also allowed. To open up trade to expose our workers to competition from low wage countries, a competition that they can't win. A competition that ultimately will bite the American corporations in the ass because they picked the worse possible country to elevate by pouring all of the American money into it, the authoritarian controlled economy of the PRC, who have no history of capitalism save to oppose it. Who will now change capitalism from inside it to serve their state, something that they couldn't do when they were on the outside.

 
We know how to lower birth rates. It's done by providing good quality education (particularly to women), and by reducing infant and child mortality. Once those two measures are in place, and as long as women have easy and inexpensive access to safe and reliable contraception that they can control, it is an observed fact that birth rates in a population will fall to below replacement level.

This effect then persists, despite even quite sizable financial incentives to have children that might be put in place. Most educated women want small families, as long as they have a reasonable expectation that all their children will survive to adulthood.

Obviously there will be a small number of people who buck the trend, and choose to have large families; But this is a rare occurrence, and the net effect on population size is negligible. However what IS of vital importance, if we are to even make a pretense of having any ethical and moral standards, is to ensure that children, once born, are adequately provided for - even if their parents are unable (or even unwilling) to do so.

The anti-human and downright evil stance that we can reduce birthrates (particularly amongst 'undesirable' elements of society) by punishing children with poverty, needs to be called out for the sick and unfounded ideology that it is. Poverty would not be a humane punishment, even if it were directed only at the 'guilty' parents, rather than at their innocent children.

Anyone who says 'we mustn't subsidize parents who have children they can't afford' can take their flawed assumptions and shove them up their arse. We have a moral obligation to support children whose parents are unable to do so. And the fulfillment of that obligation is demonstrably NOT an effective driver of higher birthrates. Despite any purely theoretical assumptions that it ought to be. In fact, by reducing infant and child mortality, such 'subsidies' will actually tend to push birthrates down, when averaged across populations.
 
A UBI subsidizes low wages. Anything that the government subsidizes the economy will produce more of. If you put in a UBI the economy will respond by lowering wages.

A UBI subsidizes jobs. Put one in and you get more jobs. I'm opposed to a UBI because it puts on a one-way street, but not because of low wage jobs.

If the government has to subsidize something we should take it for what it is, a sign that the economy doesn't want it.

Yup, unproductive workers.

But left on its own, the economy is short-sighted and relatively stupid. The "right wing" solution is to allow the economy to operate on its own, without adult supervision because it will self-regulate. But this is a pipe dream that has been explored repeatedly.

So long as you don't get quasi-monopolies it does a pretty good job of self-regulating. The fuck-ups are generally caused by the government meddling with the market, making something undesirable profitable.

Last week I watched the Comcast crew bury fiber optic cable in my front yard. Last year I watched the AT&T crew bury fiber optic cable in my front yard. This was only six months after the Google crew buried their fiber optic cable in my front yard. I have now 3 fiber optic cables in my front yard. Why are they there? Because competition and competitive pressures drove them there. Is it efficient? No, it is inefficient, obviously.

The alternative is a monopoly and in the long run that hurts more.

(However, there are things the government could do, such as mandate that if a trench is open any other utility that has something suitable to lay in it is free to do so.)

Likewise, left on its own, the economy doesn't do health care, education, and jurisprudence very well.

Healthcare--does it. Insurance it doesn't but that is mostly legacy garbage from it being through your employer. Consider other types of insurance that also suffer from the problem of health issues. Life and disability insurance have systems that protect the consumer. The market can do it.

Education--government meddling. Student loans lead to the for-profit mess.

Justice--an inherent monopoly. The market doesn't do monopolies well.

There has to an adult in the room. One who will channel the greed, who will police the economy to punish and prevent the bad behavior and who will provide the structure of the economy that will produce the best results in the long run and will distribute the gains from the economy in the best interests of society. And by that I mean to more evenly distribute the gains from the economy to all who participate in it, rather than just to over-reward the 1% of the wealthiest, as the "right wing" solution does.

The government doesn't make a very good adult, however.
 
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