Biden administration announces partial student loan forgiveness

[Toni]

I realize you think it is always obvious when you are being sarcastic. I think that about my posts as well. We are both wrong at least sometimes.

 

[laughing dog]

Whether or not you think I am selfish or narcissistic, my extension and elaboration of Trausti's satirical suggestion should have been obvious. And I think it was obvious to you. Just not Toni.

To put it kindly, I did not see sarcasm but massive failures at attempted cleverness.

However, when readers are misunderstanding their message, a writer interested in effective communication does not jump at blaming the audience .

 

[Metaphor]

Whether or not you think I am selfish or narcissistic, my extension and elaboration of Trausti's satirical suggestion should have been obvious. And I think it was obvious to you. Just not Toni.

To put it kindly, I did not see sarcasm but massive failures at attempted cleverness.

Yet you were under no illusion that I actually meant the literal words I had typed.

However, when readers are misunderstanding their message, a writer interested in effective communication does not jump at blaming the audience .

I suspect the vast majority of readers would have understood it was satire, as you did.

 

[Toni]

I was being sarcastic.

D'oh! As promised.

You don't need to hear me say it to understand the content was satirical and not an utterance of my actual beliefs. The content and context ought have been enough. My actual beliefs are the complete opposite of what I literally wrote. I think it would be a stupid and terrible idea for a gov't to pay people on an ongoing salary merely for having had a tertiary education, and I conveyed that it was a stupid and terrible idea by mockingly endorsing it and elaborating on it.

Here's the thing. People do often write surprising things that seem to contradict what they've ever written/how they've ever presented themselves and mean those contradictory things.

And on the internet, people read with various degrees of interest, attention to detail, distractions, alertness, etc. I often do not think you could possibly be sincere yet this is the first time you've ever said that it was obvious you were being sarcastic. I'll try to keep that in mind in the future but it might be nice if you made it much more obvious and actually stated: sarcasm for those of us who often read in a distracted, sleep deprived or time pressured state.

 

[laughing dog]

Whether or not you think I am selfish or narcissistic, my extension and elaboration of Trausti's satirical suggestion should have been obvious. And I think it was obvious to you. Just not Toni.

To put it kindly, I did not see sarcasm but massive failures at attempted cleverness.

Yet you were under no illusion that I actually meant the literal words I had typed.

To be fair, it seems you rarely mean the literal words you type. But a reader who is either unfamiliar with your posting history, or unattentative or even just plain tired might easily take you at your word. If you desire readers to get your point, it is really up to you to make sure they get it. Blaming them for your poor communication is not an effective mechanism.

However, when readers are misunderstanding their message, a writer interested in effective communication does not jump at blaming the audience .

I suspect the vast majority of readers would have understood it was satire, as you did.

Apparently you did not read or understand the italicized and bold-faced part.

 

[Canard DuJour]

No remotely convincing case has been made that forgiveness of student debt by the American gov't is beneficial to society.

No case whatsoever has been made that future tax payers will get less.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why are we even letting LP frame this argument as if the fucking 'market' should drive what people do for an education. Fucking hell, he's got a bad case of capitalism, and it's fully metastasized.

If we let the 'market' determine what people should do, all we get are fucking sportsball players and bad autotune.

No. Just fucking no. We need art, as a civilization. We need dance and music and teachers (there's one the market really fucked up) and nurses and all kinds of professions that the market drastically under values.

Fuck. Capitalism.

People value watching sports. We shouldn't be deciding that it's not appropriate entertainment for them, however stupid it seems to us.

I do agree the market for teachers is fucked up--that's what happens when you have basically a sole source for hiring them.

 

[laughing dog]

I do agree the market for teachers is fucked up--that's what happens when you have basically a sole source for hiring them.

That makes no sense. There is a basically a sole source for hiring any professional hockey, basketball, football or baseball player in the USA.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I do agree the market for teachers is fucked up--that's what happens when you have basically a sole source for hiring them.

That makes no sense. There is a basically a sole source for hiring any professional hockey, basketball, football or baseball player in the USA.

They can make the various teams bid against each other. A sufficient portion of teachers of kids are hired by the government that the government pretty much controls the market.

 

[laughing dog]

I do agree the market for teachers is fucked up--that's what happens when you have basically a sole source for hiring them.

That makes no sense. There is a basically a sole source for hiring any professional hockey, basketball, football or baseball player in the USA.

They can make the various teams bid against each other. A sufficient portion of teachers of kids are hired by the government that the government pretty much controls the market.

Teachers can make different school districts (there is no single "government" purchaser of teaching services) bid against each other or go into more lucrative professions (as many end up doing).

Your argument is long on ideology and short on economic thinking.
Th

 

[steve_bank]

It is not forgivness. It is taxpayers paying off personal loans.

 

[Derec]

I'll tell you what's toxic to society: fucking Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas and everyone else from sun and sundry being a ignorant fucking idiot about shit that they should damn well know as functional adults.

What in particular do you think Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas are so ignorant about and how will that state of affairs be helped by forgiving loans to people who took six figure loans to study art history or underwater basket weaving at some pretentious private liberal arts college?

I WANT my tax dollars to go toward that.

You want taxpayer funded courses for Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas in what exactly?

 

[Derec]

Why are we even letting LP frame this argument as if the fucking 'market' should drive what people do for an education.

Because people usually get a degree in order to pursue a particular career.
If too many people pursue say PhD in French Poetry or Medieval Art History not for personal edification but to pursue a career in those fields, you get an oversaturation of the market and people taking adjunct professor gigs for $20k per year like in this thread:
Professors in Poverty

Fucking hell, he's got a bad case of capitalism, and it's fully metastasized.

Would you rather have a bad case of stage IV socialism?
Do you think in actually existing countries you could get any degree you wanted for free? No, who was allowed to pursue higher education, in what field and at what institution was carefully regulated to conform to the current five year plan.

If we let the 'market' determine what people should do, all we get are fucking sportsball players and bad autotune.

Hardly. These professions get to make big bucks because most of the audience wants to see the games in the top league in a particular sport, which offer very limited employment. NBA has just over 500 players, NFL just under 1,700 and MLB is in the middle - just under 1000. That's a laughably small fraction of US workforce, and to suggest that "all we get are sportsball players" is laughable.
Yes, there are minor leagues, but they are not paid well. And things are even worse for individual sports. There are probably less than hundred active American professional tennis players, only 22 of them being top 100 ranked (11 men, 11 women as of 2018).
Same goes for popular musicians. A few thousand can actually make a living making music at any given time, whether autotuned or not.

No. Just fucking no. We need art, as a civilization.

Ok, we do, to some extent. But do we need government funded/subsidized art? And who then decides what is art worth funding/subsidizing?
The art world is largely a scam these days anyway. A lot of tax dodging and money laundering.

We need dance and music

And we do have those.

and teachers (there's one the market really fucked up)

The median salary for teachers in the US is ~$60k. That's not bad for a job with Summers off and is better than median income for minor sportsball leagues like MiLB or G-League. Median household income is ~$67k so a median teacher is just under that. Two median teachers have a household income of about 3rd quartile. Does not really correspond well to the memes about how teachers are the poors.

and nurses and all kinds of professions that the market drastically under values.

Nurses make ~$75k median. More for higher level like nurse practitioners.

Fuck. Capitalism.

Really? You think teachers and nurses were valued higher under actually existing socialism? I grew up in an actually existing socialist country and let me tell you, they were not.

 

[Worldtraveller]

It is not forgivness. It is taxpayers paying off personal loans.

So?

 

[Jarhyn]

It's interesting that when someone brings up the existence of individuals within the classes of "barista" and "Uber drivers" who are idiots on the basis of immediate interactions with such idiots, that others immediately jump to thinking this describes or is intended to describe all baristas and Uber drivers.

it's almost as if some folks have some stereotypes on their minds... Or operate in the realm of stereotype in general.

Still, it would be a better world if ZERO of the baristas and Uber drivers I encountered asked me whether chemtrails were real.

I'm sure some such have been to college, and that the majority aren't dumb or uneducated.

What is clear is that if everyone were more able to pursue education, fewer baristas and Uber drivers would be uneducated and less likely to spout off crazy shit like chemtrails and flat-earth.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'll tell you what's toxic to society: fucking Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas and everyone else from sun and sundry being a ignorant fucking idiot about shit that they should damn well know as functional adults.

What in particular do you think Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas are so ignorant about and how will that state of affairs be helped by forgiving loans to people who took six figure loans to study art history or underwater basket weaving at some pretentious private liberal arts college?

Because most college students didn't major in art history or went to some pretentious private liberal arts college. Why is it necessary to demonize everyone? We have a generation of college grads struggling with loans because college (even state) got real expensive and the '08 crash led to extraordinary tightening on resources, which led to fewer people working and completing the same amount of work. There are positions that have either disappeared or multiple positions have become one job now.

The American Dream had been contingent on "going to college". That was a major rung in 'making it'. The US is developing into a different nation, with a surplus of people that went to college, and a college degree does not maintain the value it had. But no one told these kids that. And none of them are responsible for how corporations squeeze the amount of production they get these days out of fewer workers.

These kids were told to go to college. They did. Some of them majored in Liberal Arts because they no good math and science. Had they not, you'd be whining about paying their welfare payments because they stopped after high school. "Why didn't they go to college?!" But to complain about caricatures in order to be able to handwave the students as fools is nothing but blind character assassination. You don't know these people, you don't know how hard they did or didn't work, you just want to laugh at them drowning in the ocean when you could easily pass them a life saver.

 

[laughing dog]

Why are we even letting LP frame this argument as if the fucking 'market' should drive what people do for an education.

Because people usually get a degree in order to pursue a particular career.

That is untrue. There are degree program that are designed for particular careers (education, accounting, and some engineering degree come to mind), but most degree are not.

Your observation is an extensive of the mono- utilitarian view of education.

 

[Jarhyn]

Why are we even letting LP frame this argument as if the fucking 'market' should drive what people do for an education.

Because people usually get a degree in order to pursue a particular career.

That is untrue. There are degree program that are designed for particular careers (education, accounting, and some engineering degree come to mind), but most degree are not.

Your observation is an extensive of the mono- utilitarian view of education.

If ever I pursue a deeper degree it will explicitly not be in my career path. I want to learn how to do things I enjoy and do them very well for my own sake.

I would, for my career, do something I hate so as to not despoil the things I love with labor for base purposes.

If the labors of my love are enjoyed by others, this is nice, but I will not be enslaved to that which I love for my basic needs.

Maybe I get enough money to quit my job from my job from my hobbies, but even then, they will not be my job and I will treat them as hobbies. If ever they cease to do the thing for the sake of supporting myself, I will always have a job I can do that I hate.

And even if I somehow also learn to love my job, I will only ever do it "for a job" because I know I can hate it.

 

[Toni]

I'll tell you what's toxic to society: fucking Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas and everyone else from sun and sundry being a ignorant fucking idiot about shit that they should damn well know as functional adults.

What in particular do you think Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas are so ignorant about and how will that state of affairs be helped by forgiving loans to people who took six figure loans to study art history or underwater basket weaving at some pretentious private liberal arts college?

Because most college students didn't major in art history or went to some pretentious private liberal arts college. Why is it necessary to demonize everyone? We have a generation of college grads struggling with loans because college (even state) got real expensive and the '08 crash led to extraordinary tightening on resources, which led to fewer people working and completing the same amount of work. There are positions that have either disappeared or multiple positions have become one job now.

The American Dream had been contingent on "going to college". That was a major rung in 'making it'. The US is developing into a different nation, with a surplus of people that went to college, and a college degree does not maintain the value it had. But no one told these kids that. And none of them are responsible for how corporations squeeze the amount of production they get these days out of fewer workers.

These kids were told to go to college. They did. Some of them majored in Liberal Arts because they no good math and science. Had they not, you'd be whining about paying their welfare payments because they stopped after high school. "Why didn't they go to college?!" But to complain about caricatures in order to be able to handwave the students as fools is nothing but blind character assassination. You don't know these people, you don't know how hard they did or didn't work, you just want to laugh at them drowning in the ocean when you could easily pass them a life saver.

Some kids majored in liberal arts because they are good at writing, art, music, history, economics, sociology, psychology and other subjects which are not math or science or computers. And they enjoyed those subjects and are well employed and self supporting and create all kinds of things we all enjoy.

FFS, as a science major coming from a family of people who were pushed into math and science and did very well in those fields: not everyone in those fields is smart, completed their degree, is employed, is employed in those fields or is a decent human being. Definitely not all are happy in those careers. STEM careers are not the only career paths that are worthwhile, productive, lucrative, essential to society or worth pursuing.

So all of you engineers, computer or otherwise can just stuff it.

 

[Jarhyn]

...
So all of you engineers, computer or otherwise can just stuff it.

Hey now, I'm on your side here!