Bipartisan fascists go after Backpage et al

[Derec]

First they came for Craigslist ...
Remember, a few years ago. Now they are going after Backpage.
Sex ads website Backpage shut down by U.S. authorities
While the action is done by Trump's DOJ, it is a bipartisan effort, just like persecution of Craigslist was.

“Today, Backpage was shutdown. It’s a huge step. Now no child will be sold for sex through this website,” tweeted Senator Heidi Heitkamp.
Heitkamp helped draft legislation passed by the Senate last month that makes it easier for state prosecutors and sex-trafficking victims to sue social media networks, advertisers and others that fail to keep sex trafficking and exploitative materials off their platforms..

Heitkamp is a Democrat. And Kamila Harris, probable candidate for president, has had a hate boner for Backpage for years.

The ostensible reason for the shutdown and the draconian, bipartisan, fascist legislation is "child trafficking" but it really goes after consensual, adult sex work which is probably 99% of Backpage sex work ads.
I am all for combating real human trafficking, but this is not a solution.
More on the legislation:
How a Controversial New Sex-Trafficking Law Will Change the Web
In the House, my Democratic Congressman voted for this, as did most Democrats.
In the Senate, the only ones brave enough to vote "No" on this travesty were Wyden, a Democrat and Ryan, a Republican (who leans libertarian).

The Democratic Party is giving me fewer and fewer reasons each day to vote for them. Despite Trump. Sad.
And self-described "liberals" have proven they should start calling themselves "iliberals".

 

[Toni]

So, you are in favor of sex trafficking and child prostitution?

 

[Derec]

So, you are in favor of sex trafficking and child prostitution?

Have you not read my post?

I am all for combating real human trafficking, but this is not a solution.

This is not about "child prostitution" or any "trafficking". This is about using those things as a cudgel to go after all sex work (including consensual, adult sex work) ads and web sites related to it. And it's passing legislation that will negatively affect Internet as a whole, by gutting CDA 230.

It's the entire Congress (except a few individuals of both parties) turning into a giant Helen Lovejoy.

 

[Toni]

So Backpage and Craig's list were not used for trafficking children or unwilling sex workers?

Do you have any actual data that supports your claim that 99% of the ads placed on Backpage and Craig's List involve only legitimate sex workers?

What percentage of business devoted to child sex traffic and trafficking of other unwilling individuals is acceptable to you?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

This is what happens with prostitution being illegal. There’s no decent way to filter out the sex slaves from the consenting adults.

If you’re going to make an error trying distinguish them in that situation (and you are), it’s best to err on the side of helping to stop the sex slaves from getting raped. Backpage chose to ignore the fact that they were enabling the rape of sex slaves because they were making money and they deserve to lose all their money as a result.

 

[Toni]

This is what happens with prostitution being illegal. There’s no decent way to filter out the sex slaves from the consenting adults.

If you’re going to make an error trying distinguish them in that situation (and you are), it’s best to err on the side of helping to stop the sex slaves from getting raped. Backpage chose to ignore the fact that they were enabling the rape of sex slaves because they were making money and they deserve to lose all their money as a result.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that legalizing prostitution eliminates unwilling prostitutes or those who are underage or actually young children from being forced into prostitution. I really wish that it were the case that legalization eliminated or slowed down illegal prostitution but that does not seem to be supported by actual data.

 

[prideandfall]

This is what happens with prostitution being illegal. There’s no decent way to filter out the sex slaves from the consenting adults.

If you’re going to make an error trying distinguish them in that situation (and you are), it’s best to err on the side of helping to stop the sex slaves from getting raped. Backpage chose to ignore the fact that they were enabling the rape of sex slaves because they were making money and they deserve to lose all their money as a result.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that legalizing prostitution eliminates unwilling prostitutes or those who are underage or actually young children from being forced into prostitution. I really wish that it were the case that legalization eliminated or slowed down illegal prostitution but that does not seem to be supported by actual data.

an unfortunate truth, as has been discussed in other threads here over the last few years, but here's what i wonder:
if you have X number of sex slaves or victims of human trafficking out there in the world, and making prostitution legal doesn't decrease that number, but making prostitution illegal also doesn't decrease that number, what is the value in making prostitution illegal?

*edit to add:
a year ago i found myself utilizing prostitution for the first time and quite honestly i found thebackpage to be sort of a mess of ads and false postings and click-bait, so i do question whether them shutting down (and not some of the more legit seeming prostitution web pages out there, including the one i ended up using to procure myself a couple, which are still operational) is really about a draconian law or if it's about thebackpage being shady as shit.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

This is what happens with prostitution being illegal. There’s no decent way to filter out the sex slaves from the consenting adults.

If you’re going to make an error trying distinguish them in that situation (and you are), it’s best to err on the side of helping to stop the sex slaves from getting raped. Backpage chose to ignore the fact that they were enabling the rape of sex slaves because they were making money and they deserve to lose all their money as a result.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that legalizing prostitution eliminates unwilling prostitutes or those who are underage or actually young children from being forced into prostitution. I really wish that it were the case that legalization eliminated or slowed down illegal prostitution but that does not seem to be supported by actual data.

I don’t believe it does that either, at least in most of the ways which legalization has been attempted. What it does do is provide a framework where the consenting adults can be better distinguished from the sex slaves. You know that people are going to be renting prostitutes and you know that there will be people forcing unwilling girls and boys into it and none of the steps that you take are going to stop that.

The only real solution would be a highly regulated industry with lots of resources dedicated to enforcement. I can’t see how snythung else would do anything except lead to more rapes instead of less.

 

[laughing dog]

The ostensible reason for the shutdown and the draconian, bipartisan, fascist legislation is "child trafficking" but it really goes after consensual, adult sex work which is probably 99% of Backpage sex work ads.

What percentage of backpage sex work ads would have to be non-adult/nonsensual sex work to make shutting down Backpage meet your approval?

I am all for combating real human trafficking, but this is not a solution.

I don't think anyone is claiming this is a complete solution. How many people would this action have to prevent from becoming a sex slave in order for this to meet your approval as part of a solution?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

"We wanted them to shut it down a long time ago, this is just great," said Beth Jacobs, a sex trafficking survivor, who now works as an advocate representing other victims in Washington, D.C.

Jacobs has spent the last few years testifying about the problems in Washington, D.C. and working with federal agents to raise awareness, and help them understand what needs to be done to help sex trafficking survivors trapped in a dangerous world.

Like many victims, Jacobs got into the sex trade industry as a teenager. She says she was held hostage by her "pimp" who would take all her money and physically abuse her if she defied him.

Jacobs said these victims are living in fear. Many of them may not even know the pimps were soliciting for them on websites like Backpage.com.

"That is prostitution. As you look at the ads, you can see how they play with the words. 'Fresh, fresh in town, new in town' that just means they're young and they just started," Jacobs said.

Another sex trafficking survivor who asked us not to reveal her name said she left home at the age of 15 as she wanted to get out of the abusive environment.

The girl said "friends" she met on the street took her to California, but what she thought was a fun trip to see relatives and start fresh turned into a nightmare.

"I ended up becoming a victim, and not being able to leave. I was forced to do certain things. I basically was locked up in a hotel room all day," the victim said.

She said she was with other girls her age, and they would be physically abused by the man who locked them up, if they did not do as he said.

"Most girls do have somebody that is controlling them. Somebody that takes all the money at the end," the girl said.

She advertised herself on Backpage.com because she was told that was the "thing to do."

https://www.abc15.com/news/region-p...ivors-advocates-celebrate-backpagecom-closure

 

[prideandfall]

https://www.abc15.com/news/region-p...ivors-advocates-celebrate-backpagecom-closure

i do have to ask again because i'm very interested in the thoughts of people who generally seem against legalized prostitution:
how does making a consenting act legal (or illegal) change this paradigm?
i want to understand the logistics in how it's thought that making prostitution illegal and putting resources and legislative effort into criminalizing the above-board side of prostitution helps in any way to reduce incidents like this.

 

[Toni]

This is what happens with prostitution being illegal. There’s no decent way to filter out the sex slaves from the consenting adults.

If you’re going to make an error trying distinguish them in that situation (and you are), it’s best to err on the side of helping to stop the sex slaves from getting raped. Backpage chose to ignore the fact that they were enabling the rape of sex slaves because they were making money and they deserve to lose all their money as a result.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that legalizing prostitution eliminates unwilling prostitutes or those who are underage or actually young children from being forced into prostitution. I really wish that it were the case that legalization eliminated or slowed down illegal prostitution but that does not seem to be supported by actual data.

I don’t believe it does that either, at least in most of the ways which legalization has been attempted. What it does do is provide a framework where the consenting adults can be better distinguished from the sex slaves. You know that people are going to be renting prostitutes and you know that there will be people forcing unwilling girls and boys into it and none of the steps that you take are going to stop that.

The only real solution would be a highly regulated industry with lots of resources dedicated to enforcement. I can’t see how snythung else would do anything except lead to more rapes instead of less.

I don't think that a highly regulated industry will produce enough willing sex workers to meet demand. That's the long and short of it. I don't think criminalization is what keeps willing sex workers out of the industry.

Tightly regulated prostitution might--and I want to stress that this is uncertain--reduce dangers inherent in the work but it won't remove the dangers the work presents. And I don't think it will reduce the emotional damage. Very few people are equipped by personality or emotional make up to have sex with many strangers over the course of a day or a week, for months and years at a time. I don't believe this is because society is sexually repressive. I believe that it is actually based on the evolutionary biology of sex and reproduction.

Tightly regulated prostitution does nothing--not a damn thing-- to address the fact that there will remain a market for those who wish to have sex with individuals who are clearly too young to be having sex with anyone--children and young teens.

And that does nothing to address the fact that there are those who prefer to have sex with someone who is not quite willing. Or with someone they feel they paid money to and so they can do what they like to them for whatever the duration of the money spent allows. Or those who prefer to have sex without condoms and who will pay a premium for sex without condoms. Some will actively seek out sex slaves precisely because they are sex slaves and have no choice about what happens to them.

I am pretty certain that most people who use the services of prostitutes do not believe that the prostitutes are being forced or are trafficked or are in any way unwilling. I'm pretty certain that most people don't really question whether or not the prostitute is willing--it isn't convenient to do so. Legalization will not change that. Legalization will just further remove from the customer any obligation to be concerned at all about the welfare of the sex worker: it's legal so they must be willing, right? I'm pretty sure that many prostitutes recognize that telling customers that they don't want to be doing this is bad for business. I'm pretty sure that some prostitutes recognize that for some customers, believing that prostitutes are unwilling would be good for a certain kind of business. I don't believe that legalization will change this.

I really wish that I thought that legalization would mitigate any of the harm that prostitution does to sex workers, but I don't. I know full well that prostitution will continue regardless. Legalization will remove stigma from customers but it won't remove stigma from prostitution. It will allow society to lie to itself that only willing adults are prostitutes. We lie to ourselves about too much already.

I recognize that many customers are looking for intimacy rather than just sex and for some, not sex at all but someone to listen to them, to be physically close to them for some defined amount of time.


A better way to start to address the problems with prostitution would be to start to address the problems with people's emotional and social needs being met and what happens when they are left unmet.

 

[Derec]

So Backpage and Craig's list were not used for trafficking children or unwilling sex workers?

I am sure they have. And I am sure eBay has been used to sell stolen goods too. With many thousands of active users it is impossible for either site to police listings. That does not mean that eBay should be shut down either. And it certainly does not mean that CDA 230 should be gutted so that eBay is not responsible for all 3rd party listings.
What is it about sex that both left and right feel that it's ok to limit people's freedom's over?

Do you have any actual data that supports your claim that 99% of the ads placed on Backpage and Craig's List involve only legitimate sex workers?

No, it's an estimate. I have never seen an ad advertising an underage provider though.

And anyway, it is the anti-BP forces that should have the burden of proof here, and I hope you have noticed they are light on numbers and heavy on conflating all sex work with trafficking. I think that's the point. The illiberal authoritarians running out government want to eliminate all sex work. The "think of the children" approach is just a pretext. Just like in the days of anti-gay persecution there was a lot of talk about gays being pederasts and trying to seduce children into the gay lifestyle. Who would be against going after child molesters? Who wouldn't be against child prostitution? Of course nobody. And the illiberals are counting on you not seeing past the ruse in both cases.

What percentage of business devoted to child sex traffic and trafficking of other unwilling individuals is acceptable to you?

There was this law that said that web sites are not responsible for postings by their users. I think underage and involuntary sex work should be investigated and prosecuted fully. But not at expense of shutting down all sex work ads. And not at the expense of gutting internet freedom.

 

[Derec]

If you’re going to make an error trying distinguish them in that situation (and you are), it’s best to err on the side of helping to stop the sex slaves from getting raped. Backpage chose to ignore the fact that they were enabling the rape of sex slaves because they were making money and they deserve to lose all their money as a result.

I do not think BP should be responsible for illegal acts by others, any more than eBay should be. And I do not think it is nearly as widespread as claimed; it's a moral panic.
Had the state and federal government not been gung-ho on shutting all sex ads because of ideology, they could have worked with BP to go after actual traffickers and a lot more good would have been done. Instead the aim of politicians like Kamila Harris and Jeff Sessions has been to persecute legit sex workers and their clients. How does that help any trafficking victims?

 

[Derec]

Unfortunately, I don't believe that legalizing prostitution eliminates unwilling prostitutes or those who are underage or actually young children from being forced into prostitution.

So you think that sex work should be illegal unless legalization eliminates all underage prostitution? That's an impossible standard to meet. And why should I be persecuted for hiring a willing, adult sex worker just because Joe Schmo wants to bang a 13 year old? How is banning one helping eliminate the other?

Btw, "young children" are not likely going to be offered in any publicly accessible forum - that's what dark web is for. If there are any underage providers on BP or similar sites they are older teenagers.

I really wish that it were the case that legalization eliminated or slowed down illegal prostitution but that does not seem to be supported by actual data.

Selling and buying stuff is a perfectly legal activity. Yet, some people sell stolen goods. Bad people will do bad things regardless. Is that a reason to turn the rest of the people legitimately going after the same activity into criminals?
Let's say politicians came up with the "ingenious" idea to ban selling stuff online to combat fencing. Do you think it would be more or less difficult to root out fencers when legitimate commercial activity is pushed underground? When police spend most of their time persecuting people who aren't harming anybody instead of going after the bad guys?

And note that much of the "data" offered here are by outfits that conflate all sex work with trafficking. They have an ideological axe to grind. How would data on eBay sales look like if it is compiled by groups that have an ideological or religious aversion to buying and selling?

 

[Derec]

a year ago i found myself utilizing prostitution for the first time and quite honestly i found thebackpage to be sort of a mess of ads and false postings and click-bait, so i do question whether them shutting down (and not some of the more legit seeming prostitution web pages out there, including the one i ended up using to procure myself a couple, which are still operational) is really about a draconian law or if it's about thebackpage being shady as shit.

The law will go after the review sites as well. Some of the lawmakers praising the law specifically mentioned review sites.

 

[Derec]

What percentage of backpage sex work ads would have to be non-adult/nonsensual sex work to make shutting down Backpage meet your approval?

I don't know exact percentage. But it is telling that the supporters of the shutdown/legislation are not offering any numbers.
The point is to shut down all sex work, the "non-adult/nonsensual" angle is just a pretext.

I don't think anyone is claiming this is a complete solution. How many people would this action have to prevent from becoming a sex slave in order for this to meet your approval as part of a solution?

It's not a partial solution. It's going in the completely wrong direction. Toward more government intrusion into people's lives.
It's like shutting down eBay because some people sell stolen goods on it.

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.abc15.com/news/region-p...ivors-advocates-celebrate-backpagecom-closure

These sob-stories are anecdotes, not data. And how is persecuting legit sex work going to help trafficking victims anyway?

 

[Derec]

A better way to start to address the problems with prostitution would be to start to address the problems with people's emotional and social needs being met and what happens when they are left unmet.

A better way would be for government to but out of lives of consenting adults. We did it with gays. There was a lot of moral panic-mongering involved there as well, including involving children.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

...sob-stories...

You seem to have an emotional need to minimize child sex trafficking. In other threads you pointed to European countries with low age of consent, such as 14, as role models. Does this mean you think the young prostitutes are consenting? What about all the crack addict prostitutes, are they consenting?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

...it's an estimate.

What was the methodology utilized to obtain this estimate?