Bipartisan fascists go after Backpage et al

[Toni]

Unfortunately, I don't believe that legalizing prostitution eliminates unwilling prostitutes or those who are underage or actually young children from being forced into prostitution.

So you think that sex work should be illegal unless legalization eliminates all underage prostitution? That's an impossible standard to meet.

I think all underaged prostitution should be eliminated. It is likely an impossible ideal but it is one we should be reaching for, much, much harder than we are now. If legalization reduced the prostitution of underaged people, I'd be much more supportive. It doesn't seem to do that.

And why should I be persecuted for hiring a willing, adult sex worker just because Joe Schmo wants to bang a 13 year old? How is banning one helping eliminate the other?

How does legalization help slow down child prostitution? How do you determine--and I mean: YOU personally--who is willing and who is not? How would anyone? Because there is license on a door? I think we both know that will mean nothing, really.

IMO, legalizing just makes it easier for us to lie to ourselves that everyone is a willing participant and has had all health checks, is safe and is of consenting age.

Btw, "young children" are not likely going to be offered in any publicly accessible forum - that's what dark web is for. If there are any underage providers on BP or similar sites they are older teenagers.

So, you consider 14 an older teenager?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/11/us/backpage-ads-sex-trafficking.html

http://www.womensfundingnetwork.org/enslaved-in-america-sex-trafficking-in-the-united-states/

I really wish that it were the case that legalization eliminated or slowed down illegal prostitution but that does not seem to be supported by actual data.

Selling and buying stuff is a perfectly legal activity.

But buying and selling people is not. Do you consider prostitutes 'stuff?'

Yet, some people sell stolen goods. Bad people will do bad things regardless. Is that a reason to turn the rest of the people legitimately going after the same activity into criminals?

Good people also do bad things sometimes, regardless. That doesn't mean we don't recognize it as bad and as something that should not happen. I mean, under your logic, why ban murder?

And note that much of the "data" offered here are by outfits that conflate all sex work with trafficking. They have an ideological axe to grind. How would data on eBay sales look like if it is compiled by groups that have an ideological or religious aversion to buying and selling?

Well, you offer no 'data' to counter data that demonstrates that legalization does not stop trafficking and in fact, may increase it.

As far as ideological ax to grind? That's rich. You definitely have a personal ax to grind. And yeah, I am right there with the ideologues that think that it is wrong to force someone to prostitute themselves. Period.

 

[Malintent]

Prohibition is the evil. Not what is prohibited. Forcing products and or services underground on the black market that are widely demanded by the public creates these problems. Pedophilia is not widely demanded, and is illegal for many reasons. Adult sex work is illegal for what reasons? Religious cooks getting an icky feeling down there?

 

[laughing dog]

I don't know exact percentage.

How about an approximate one?

The point is to shut down all sex work, the "non-adult/nonsensual" angle is just a pretext.

And you know this because....?

It's not a partial solution. It's going in the completely wrong direction. Toward more government intrusion into people's lives.

It is a partial solution, just one you don't like.

It's like shutting down eBay because some people sell stolen goods on it.

So, you think it is overkill. I think most people would view underage sex and sex trafficking is a lot worse than selling stolen goods.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I don’t believe it does that either, at least in most of the ways which legalization has been attempted. What it does do is provide a framework where the consenting adults can be better distinguished from the sex slaves. You know that people are going to be renting prostitutes and you know that there will be people forcing unwilling girls and boys into it and none of the steps that you take are going to stop that.

The only real solution would be a highly regulated industry with lots of resources dedicated to enforcement. I can’t see how snythung else would do anything except lead to more rapes instead of less.

I don't think that a highly regulated industry will produce enough willing sex workers to meet demand. That's the long and short of it. I don't think criminalization is what keeps willing sex workers out of the industry.

Tightly regulated prostitution might--and I want to stress that this is uncertain--reduce dangers inherent in the work but it won't remove the dangers the work presents. And I don't think it will reduce the emotional damage. Very few people are equipped by personality or emotional make up to have sex with many strangers over the course of a day or a week, for months and years at a time. I don't believe this is because society is sexually repressive. I believe that it is actually based on the evolutionary biology of sex and reproduction.

Tightly regulated prostitution does nothing--not a damn thing-- to address the fact that there will remain a market for those who wish to have sex with individuals who are clearly too young to be having sex with anyone--children and young teens.

Agreed. There is no reason to believe that there will ever be sufficient legal supply to match up to the demand or that the legal portion of the industry will ever manage to satisfy all the things wanted by the client base. That means that there will always be a large profit margin in sex slavery. Even with a fully legalized and regulated industry, there will be a huge black market in trafficking.

That doesn't, however, mean that legalization is not a good idea. If a portion of the prostitution industry is licensed and regulated, there are far more controls amongst that section that the escorts within it aren't being trafficked and are working in the industry of their own free will. That allows law enforcement to focus their resources towards actual cases of trafficking without getting distracted away from that by prosecuting consenting adults who are having sex with each other. If 10% of prostitutes are there by their own choice, it allows police to focus on the other 90% and let less cases of sex slavery slip under their radar because they were busy elsewhere. If 90% of prostitutes are there by their own choice, it allows law enforcement to have much better targeting of the areas of the industry which require them. Regardless of the percentage, it's a net benefit to the sex slaves to have a legal and regulated prostitution industry.

Now, one of the key aspects of a legalized industry is that it requires and very well staffed and very well funded Vice Department in order to have it work. IIRC from one of the earlier discussions on this topic, one of the big problems in Amsterdam was that policing the industry wasn't considered important so a huge underclass of sex trafficking has come about under the legal industry because stopping that isn't considered a priority. The police need to be actively engaged in targeting the industry to make it as difficult as possible for the sex traffickers to operate.

Also, while places like Backpage have clearly profited from not giving a shit, other things like online review forums and such should remain unimpeded. Open discussion about what agencies in a city are legitimate and which are sketchy and what tools customers can use to find the difference help shine a light on the industry and trafficking works best in the darkness.

Legalization of prostitution isn't some kind of panacea which solves the inherent problems in the industry. It does, however, go further towards solving those problems than any of the other potential solutions.

 

[Toni]

I don’t believe it does that either, at least in most of the ways which legalization has been attempted. What it does do is provide a framework where the consenting adults can be better distinguished from the sex slaves. You know that people are going to be renting prostitutes and you know that there will be people forcing unwilling girls and boys into it and none of the steps that you take are going to stop that.

The only real solution would be a highly regulated industry with lots of resources dedicated to enforcement. I can’t see how snythung else would do anything except lead to more rapes instead of less.

I don't think that a highly regulated industry will produce enough willing sex workers to meet demand. That's the long and short of it. I don't think criminalization is what keeps willing sex workers out of the industry.

Tightly regulated prostitution might--and I want to stress that this is uncertain--reduce dangers inherent in the work but it won't remove the dangers the work presents. And I don't think it will reduce the emotional damage. Very few people are equipped by personality or emotional make up to have sex with many strangers over the course of a day or a week, for months and years at a time. I don't believe this is because society is sexually repressive. I believe that it is actually based on the evolutionary biology of sex and reproduction.

Tightly regulated prostitution does nothing--not a damn thing-- to address the fact that there will remain a market for those who wish to have sex with individuals who are clearly too young to be having sex with anyone--children and young teens.

Agreed. There is no reason to believe that there will ever be sufficient legal supply to match up to the demand or that the legal portion of the industry will ever manage to satisfy all the things wanted by the client base. That means that there will always be a large profit margin in sex slavery. Even with a fully legalized and regulated industry, there will be a huge black market in trafficking.

That doesn't, however, mean that legalization is not a good idea. If a portion of the prostitution industry is licensed and regulated, there are far more controls amongst that section that the escorts within it aren't being trafficked and are working in the industry of their own free will. That allows law enforcement to focus their resources towards actual cases of trafficking without getting distracted away from that by prosecuting consenting adults who are having sex with each other. If 10% of prostitutes are there by their own choice, it allows police to focus on the other 90% and let less cases of sex slavery slip under their radar because they were busy elsewhere. If 90% of prostitutes are there by their own choice, it allows law enforcement to have much better targeting of the areas of the industry which require them. Regardless of the percentage, it's a net benefit to the sex slaves to have a legal and regulated prostitution industry.

Now, one of the key aspects of a legalized industry is that it requires and very well staffed and very well funded Vice Department in order to have it work. IIRC from one of the earlier discussions on this topic, one of the big problems in Amsterdam was that policing the industry wasn't considered important so a huge underclass of sex trafficking has come about under the legal industry because stopping that isn't considered a priority. The police need to be actively engaged in targeting the industry to make it as difficult as possible for the sex traffickers to operate.

Also, while places like Backpage have clearly profited from not giving a shit, other things like online review forums and such should remain unimpeded. Open discussion about what agencies in a city are legitimate and which are sketchy and what tools customers can use to find the difference help shine a light on the industry and trafficking works best in the darkness.

Legalization of prostitution isn't some kind of panacea which solves the inherent problems in the industry. It does, however, go further towards solving those problems than any of the other potential solutions.

Escorts????? Hahahahahahah.

What is stopping law enforcement from ignoring the escorts and obviously willing prostitutes now and focusing only on trafficking and child prostitution?

Nothing. Absolutely not a damn thing. In fact, in my area of small town/rural flyover country, every few months the local newspaper prints an article, usually with photos of mostly middle to elderly men who attempted to purchase sex with someone they believed to be a 15 year old girl. Depressingly, there are too frequent stories of adults being charged with sexual abuse of a minor child, usually under age 12. Often--no: usually years after the abuse began. None of these are priests or members of the clergy--although there are some prominent cases of past abuse making their way through various court systems now.

What I believe is that simply the idea that one can legally purchase access to someone else's body for sexual purposes creates and supports the notion that sex workers are not really human beings whose feelings and needs must be considered, that money can purchase absolutely anything and that if you pay your money, you no longer have to care how the person paid feels about the transaction or the acts being paid for.

The admittedly online only research that I have done has offered data that legalized prostitution actually increases the market for illegal prostitution. THAT is an pretty powerful argument against legalization.

 

[Toni]

Prohibition is the evil. Not what is prohibited. Forcing products and or services underground on the black market that are widely demanded by the public creates these problems. Pedophilia is not widely demanded, and is illegal for many reasons. Adult sex work is illegal for what reasons? Religious cooks getting an icky feeling down there?

Because too many prostitutes are not in the business willingly. Legalization does not seem to slow the rate of illegal prostitution. Coercion seems to be a pretty predominant feature, especially at the beginning of a prostitute's 'career.' Beginning at somewhere between 9 and 14 on average, how much choice to you think any one feels they actually have at age 18 or 21? How much education? What options do they actually have? And more importantly, what options do they feel they have? How much damage to these young people has been done? How many lives wasted?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

The onus should be on those banning prostitution to prove that doing so saves sex workers, because the opposite seems just as if not more likely, and in the absence of evidence either way, we should err on the side of freedom. Note that erring against freedom here is NOT shown to be erring on the side of the victims, and could very well be the opposite.

With sites like Backpage taken down, more prostitutes are forced into the streets where it is far more dangerous (that much is known) and likely into the arms and then control of pimps who have better resources in finding them clients.

Why do you imagine that closing Backpage would decrease rather than increase abuse and trafficking?

Some of the prostitutes will switch to being strippers and rub and tug girls, but not many. Those are different trades that take different skillsets and comfort zones (like being nude in front of a crowd and approaching and being rejected by many men).

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

So, you are in favor of sex trafficking and child prostitution?

Have you not read my post?

Derec, sheeesh, who do you think you are to question Toni for trying to put words in your mouth?

So you're saying....

[YouTube]https://youtu.be/4bZTg9j7lcQ[/YouTube]

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Also, one thing nobody here mentioned is that Backpage is an online advertising board for more than just sex. Some guy trying to sell his used bicycle just got his money for the add taken and then the add removed. Will he be compensated? And if so by whom?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Escorts????? Hahahahahahah.

What is stopping law enforcement from ignoring the escorts and obviously willing prostitutes now and focusing only on trafficking and child prostitution?

Nothing. That's kind of why they tend to ignore obviously willing prostitutes and focus on trafficking and child prostitution. Making their unofficial rules official and giving them better tools to focus on where their focus needs to be is a plus.

Nothing. Absolutely not a damn thing. In fact, in my area of small town/rural flyover country, every few months the local newspaper prints an article, usually with photos of mostly middle to elderly men who attempted to purchase sex with someone they believed to be a 15 year old girl. Depressingly, there are too frequent stories of adults being charged with sexual abuse of a minor child, usually under age 12. Often--no: usually years after the abuse began. None of these are priests or members of the clergy--although there are some prominent cases of past abuse making their way through various court systems now.

What I believe is that simply the idea that one can legally purchase access to someone else's body for sexual purposes creates and supports the notion that sex workers are not really human beings whose feelings and needs must be considered, that money can purchase absolutely anything and that if you pay your money, you no longer have to care how the person paid feels about the transaction or the acts being paid for.

The admittedly online only research that I have done has offered data that legalized prostitution actually increases the market for illegal prostitution. THAT is an pretty powerful argument against legalization.

Yes, and marijuana is a gateway drug, so moves to legalize it should be cancelled because it leads to more crack overdoses. Also, I heard a news story that a meth addict broke into somebody's house and shot them, so that's another reason that we shouldn't legalize marijuana.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Seeing a woman's face increases the lust in men and encourages rape. So Toni, do you oppose a new law that women, including yourself, must at all times wear a burka and may not leave the house without a male chaperone?

If you oppose the above, why? Shouldn't we presume it would reduce rape and isn't that a good thing? Are you for rape Toni????? *gasp*

 

[laughing dog]

Seeing a woman's face increases the lust in men and encourages rape. So Toni, do you oppose a new law that women, including yourself, must at all times wear a burka and may not leave the house without a male chaperone?

If you oppose the above, why? Shouldn't we presume it would reduce rape and isn't that a good thing? Are you for rape Toni????? *gasp*

Applying your same reasoning to your post, one would ask why not just be honest and admit you are in favor of sex trafficking and underage sex?

 

[Toni]

Seeing a woman's face increases the lust in men and encourages rape. So Toni, do you oppose a new law that women, including yourself, must at all times wear a burka and may not leave the house without a male chaperone?

If you oppose the above, why? Shouldn't we presume it would reduce rape and isn't that a good thing? Are you for rape Toni????? *gasp*

Even for you, this entire post is ludicrous.

 

[Toni]

Seeing a woman's face increases the lust in men and encourages rape. So Toni, do you oppose a new law that women, including yourself, must at all times wear a burka and may not leave the house without a male chaperone?

If you oppose the above, why? Shouldn't we presume it would reduce rape and isn't that a good thing? Are you for rape Toni????? *gasp*

Applying your same reasoning to your post, one would ask why not just be honest and admit you are in favor of sex trafficking and underage sex?

Or if he just applied reasoning, that would be an improvement.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Seeing a woman's face increases the lust in men and encourages rape. So Toni, do you oppose a new law that women, including yourself, must at all times wear a burka and may not leave the house without a male chaperone?

If you oppose the above, why? Shouldn't we presume it would reduce rape and isn't that a good thing? Are you for rape Toni????? *gasp*

Applying your same reasoning to your post, one would ask why not just be honest and admit you are in favor of sex trafficking and underage sex?

Exactly. Good catch. Exactly what she did to Derec above.

Even for you, this entire post is ludicrous.

It was meant to be, and its sad that you can't see how it mirrors what you've said.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

/mod

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Seeing a woman's face increases the lust in men and encourages rape. So Toni, do you oppose a new law that women, including yourself, must at all times wear a burka and may not leave the house without a male chaperone?

If you oppose the above, why? Shouldn't we presume it would reduce rape and isn't that a good thing? Are you for rape Toni????? *gasp*

Could you demonstrate that seeing a woman’s face increases the risk of rape?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Prohibition is the evil. Not what is prohibited. Forcing products and or services underground on the black market that are widely demanded by the public creates these problems. Pedophilia is not widely demanded, and is illegal for many reasons. Adult sex work is illegal for what reasons? Religious cooks getting an icky feeling down there?

Typical voice from Big Prostitution.

 

[thebeave]

So, you are in favor of sex trafficking and child prostitution?

Have you not read my post?

Derec, sheeesh, who do you think you are to question Toni for trying to put words in your mouth?

So you're saying....

[YouTube]https://youtu.be/4bZTg9j7lcQ[/YouTube]

Heh. Well, you should give Toni some credit. At least she didn't say, "So you're saying we should set up the sex industry the way the lobsters do?"

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Seeing a woman's face increases the lust in men and encourages rape. So Toni, do you oppose a new law that women, including yourself, must at all times wear a burka and may not leave the house without a male chaperone?

If you oppose the above, why? Shouldn't we presume it would reduce rape and isn't that a good thing? Are you for rape Toni????? *gasp*

Could you demonstrate that seeing a woman’s face increases the risk of rape?

No better than you can demonstrate that allowing adds on backpage increases the risk of sex trafficking, no. It just feels righteously correct though, doesn't it?