Birth control for Gaza

[Derec]

As I've always said, it's a mystery why poor people breed like rabbits and rich people do not.

You would think that logically, it should be the other way around. The more money you have for your kids, the more kids you should have. The less money you have for your kids, the less kids you should have. Seems like a logical no brainer.

Yet, it's always the opposite.

It's no mystery in the US, where the more children you have, the more government benefits you can claim. It's probably similar in Gaza, with bigger families getting more support both from the Hamas government and the UNRWA.

 

[Derec]

People limit family size when they have a reasonable expectation that any offspring will survive until adulthood

Not an issue in Gaza.

and when they do not require the labor of their offspring to survive.

What makes you think that Gazans "require" the labor of their offspring to survive?

By the way, what do you think of this disturbing case:
Child marriage in Gaza

Ahmed Soboh [15], the bridegroom, and Tala Soboh [14], are cousins. They grew up together and have been neighbours all their lives, separated only by a door. A marriage like theirs is “not something that happens every day,” Salem said, although child marriage is legal in the Palestinian Territories, under both Islamic and secular law. Salem said the legal minimum age for marriage is 15 for boys and 14 for girls. However, other sources differ and some have contradictory information on the matter. Both sets of parents were keen for Ahmed and Tala to marry young so that they could have children soon and the grandparents could enjoy their grandchildren, Salem explained.

It's a sick society.

 

[Toni]

Which requires having lower child mortality

Gaza doesn't have a high child mortality rate, just a high birth rate. Hence the doubling of population every 20 years or so.

and opportunities for work for which "more children" (read: unpaid unskilled labor) are not a contributor to success.

If anything, the high unemployment is the only thing keeping the Gaza birth rate below 5 per woman, as it causes a delay in marriage.
If Gaza was more prosperous, but kept the same culture of obsession with having large families, the total fertility rate would probably shoot back up to 8 or more.

It takes some time for cultural change, so more recently lowered child mortality rates are not yet affecting birth rates.

When opportunities for education and employment for women increase, family sizes decrease. Women have choices for themselves, yes. But also if women are able to earn money to help support their families, then they are good for more than just producing more little workers: they contribute economically in a way that is valued and is not childbearing/childrearing. Also, if women are earning money, then childcare must be outsourced. This is expensive everywhere.

So, economic hardship is limiting the numbers of births but not nearly as much as prosperity and good education for women would do.

 

[Derec]

It takes some time for cultural change, so more recently lowered child mortality rates are not yet affecting birth rates.

It's not that recent. Gaza has been having a population explosion for at least 50 years now.

It's over 2 million now.

When opportunities for education and employment for women increase, family sizes decrease. Women have choices for themselves, yes. But also if women are able to earn money to help support their families, then they are good for more than just producing more little workers: they contribute economically in a way that is valued and is not childbearing/childrearing. Also, if women are earning money, then childcare must be outsourced. This is expensive everywhere.

That's the hypothesis and it has worked that way in the West, but that does not necessarily mean it would work the same way here.

So, economic hardship is limiting the numbers of births but not nearly as much as prosperity and good education for women would do.

I fear that prosperity, without a change in culture, would only encourage Gazans to have even more children. Earlier marriages, more funding for IVF.
In any case, in order to improve female access to education and labor market, you have to change the heavily Islamist culture first.

 

[J842P]

Father? That has to be used loosely!

Education? What part of impregnating women yields children do they not understand?

When the parents themselves know misery for children will result, somehow I doubt explaining it adds to what they already know.

What I wouldn’t do is endorse state sanctioned free birth control. We can learn compassion after people learn to care; then, we can give a shit and tax the brown and black people to pay for 2.5% of the costs.

It's part of a pretty common belief that children are gifts from God/Allah.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Charlie Kirk (swell guy and Zionist shill) complaining about the Palestinian Authority bsnning LGBT activity.

Boom! The settlements are justice now!

What is the relevance of this?

(If what you're talking about is what I think it is he's got a point--why is a Palestinian LGBT group protesting in Israel? It's like the old joke of looking for your car keys under the streetlight rather than where you dropped them.)

 

[fast]

Father? That has to be used loosely!

Education? What part of impregnating women yields children do they not understand?

When the parents themselves know misery for children will result, somehow I doubt explaining it adds to what they already know.

What I wouldn’t do is endorse state sanctioned free birth control. We can learn compassion after people learn to care; then, we can give a shit and tax the brown and black people to pay for 2.5% of the costs.

It's part of a pretty common belief that children are gifts from God/Allah.

That’s fine. I’d suppose religious beliefs are compartmentalized. One can believe that, but if he’s steril, I don’t think such gifts will be accepted so readily. What I’m saying is that considering a child as a gift from God doesn’t mean they are so ignorant to think sex doesn’t play a mighty strong role.

 

[Toni]

It's not that recent. Gaza has been having a population explosion for at least 50 years now.
View attachment 23294
It's over 2 million now.


That's the hypothesis and it has worked that way in the West, but that does not necessarily mean it would work the same way here.

Of course it will work. It just takes time.

So, economic hardship is limiting the numbers of births but not nearly as much as prosperity and good education for women would do.

I fear that prosperity, without a change in culture, would only encourage Gazans to have even more children. Earlier marriages, more funding for IVF.
In any case, in order to improve female access to education and labor market, you have to change the heavily Islamist culture first.

People make choices in their own best interests, including economic interests, when they have the options to do so, and a reason to trust that choosing something different will be of benefit.

Cultural changes take time. As in more than one generation.

 

[J842P]

Father? That has to be used loosely!

Education? What part of impregnating women yields children do they not understand?

When the parents themselves know misery for children will result, somehow I doubt explaining it adds to what they already know.

What I wouldn’t do is endorse state sanctioned free birth control. We can learn compassion after people learn to care; then, we can give a shit and tax the brown and black people to pay for 2.5% of the costs.

It's part of a pretty common belief that children are gifts from God/Allah.

That’s fine. I’d suppose religious beliefs are compartmentalized. One can believe that, but if he’s steril, I don’t think such gifts will be accepted so readily. What I’m saying is that considering a child as a gift from God doesn’t mean they are so ignorant to think sex doesn’t play a mighty strong role.

What makes you think they don't know sex plays a role?

 

[fast]

That’s fine. I’d suppose religious beliefs are compartmentalized. One can believe that, but if he’s steril, I don’t think such gifts will be accepted so readily. What I’m saying is that considering a child as a gift from God doesn’t mean they are so ignorant to think sex doesn’t play a mighty strong role.

What makes you think they don't know sex plays a role?

I don’t think that. I deny that. I think they do know. I’m saying such a religious belief is compatible.

 

[Jarhyn]

That’s fine. I’d suppose religious beliefs are compartmentalized. One can believe that, but if he’s steril, I don’t think such gifts will be accepted so readily. What I’m saying is that considering a child as a gift from God doesn’t mean they are so ignorant to think sex doesn’t play a mighty strong role.

What makes you think they don't know sex plays a role?

I don’t think that. I deny that. I think they do know. I’m saying such a religious belief is compatible.

Not so much religious belief as much as religious hyper-conservatism.

 

[starwater]

As I've always said, it's a mystery why poor people breed like rabbits and rich people do not.

You would think that logically, it should be the other way around. The more money you have for your kids, the more kids you should have. The less money you have for your kids, the less kids you should have. Seems like a logical no brainer.

Yet, it's always the opposite.

No mystery at all. "Rich people" have educated their wimmens.

No education is required to say, "We can't afford a kid. We have no money."

If you are brought up not knowing how to read, no math skills, and you are indoctrinated from a young age that your role in life is to breed children and take care of them. These are the only skills you have. If you don't you are ostracized and have no where to live because you have no skills to support yourself. This is what you are going to do to survive.

Now do you get it?

 

[ronburgundy]

So Derec, are you logically consistent enough to conclude that Trump and the GOP have proven they have no regard for the misfortunes of poor people in America, via their constant opposition to proper sex education and access to medical care that provides birth control?

 

[Derec]

So Derec, are you logically consistent enough to conclude that Trump and the GOP have proven they have no regard for the misfortunes of poor people in America, via their constant opposition to proper sex education and access to medical care that provides birth control?

- Not a Trump nor GOP supporter
- I have always supported proper sex ed and birth control

That said, US definitely does not have a problem with out-of-control birth rates like Gaza does.

 

[Derec]

If you are brought up not knowing how to read,

Why do you assume Gazans do not know how to read? According to CIA World Factbook, illiteracy rate in Palestinian Territories is 1.2% for men, and 4.8% for women. Yes, the rate is 4x bigger for women, as is expected in an Islamic society, but still, vast majority of the population is not illiterate.

no math skills,

Why do you assume that?

and you are indoctrinated from a young age that your role in life is to breed children and take care of them.

Yes, there is a lot of indoctrination that more children is better. But that indoctrination comes from within, not without. It is part of the Palestinian/Gazan society and culture.

Now do you get it?

I do get it. Palestinian, and especially Gazan society and culture is fucked up. But do you get it? Or do you blindly support "Palestine" just because they are anti-Israel?

 

[Derec]

Of course it will work. It just takes time.

That's a statement of faith, not fact.

People make choices in their own best interests, including economic interests,

How is it in the best interest of say Omar to have children through IVF when he is so broke he and his wife can't move out on their own and instead live in a house with 27 family members?

when they have the options to do so, and a reason to trust that choosing something different will be of benefit.

I do not understand what you mean exactly. They chose to seek IVF treatment even though they are broke. How is that choice of benefit to them?

Cultural changes take time. As in more than one generation.

I doubt it will happen for Gaza in quite a while. In many ways, they are going backwards. The arrow of societal change can point in any direction.

 

[starwater]

Why do you assume Gazans do not know how to read? According to CIA World Factbook, illiteracy rate in Palestinian Territories is 1.2% for men, and 4.8% for women. Yes, the rate is 4x bigger for women, as is expected in an Islamic society, but still, vast majority of the population is not illiterate.


Why do you assume that?

and you are indoctrinated from a young age that your role in life is to breed children and take care of them.

Yes, there is a lot of indoctrination that more children is better. But that indoctrination comes from within, not without. It is part of the Palestinian/Gazan society and culture.

Now do you get it?

I do get it. Palestinian, and especially Gazan society and culture is fucked up. But do you get it? Or do you blindly support "Palestine" just because they are anti-Israel?

Uneducated women and girls will have no math skills or be able to read = not educated.

 

[Toni]

That's a statement of faith, not fact.

What the actual fuck, Derec. Have you never learned any history at all???????? Social change takes time. Cultural change takes time.

How is it in the best interest of say Omar to have children through IVF when he is so broke he and his wife can't move out on their own and instead live in a house with 27 family members?

First of all, how is that any business of yours or mine? Secondly, in many cultures, it is the custom and the expectation that family members live together. This is not just a thing in the middle east. It's also true in much of Europe, depending on the place (smaller towns are more likely) and was, in fact, the custom in the US prior to WWII and is a current trend now: three generational family homes in the US are becoming a thing. It's not crazy, either. Even if you have plenty of money, it's very costly to pay someone to look after your children while you work. I have friends who moved extremely close to their kids for the express purpose of helping with the grandkids. The plan was originally that the grandparents would live with the kids/grandkids but they had an opportunity to buy a home easy walking distance. And also the funds to do so.

If you look at immigrant families in the US, you can easily see that this is a model of family life that they bring with them--and it's the model that was dominant in the US for a long time. It's a way of preserving family resources and ensuring that the next generations are able to grow and prosper.

when they have the options to do so, and a reason to trust that choosing something different will be of benefit.

I do not understand what you mean exactly. They chose to seek IVF treatment even though they are broke. How is that choice of benefit to them?

Children are extremely important and valuable to them. Is this a choice I would have made? Not growing up here, in the life I lived but again, that's not my choice. It's a very strong cultural value: having a large family = wealth, prosperity, love of family, love of God, faith, culture, etc.

You feel differently. Mazel tov.

Cultural changes take time. As in more than one generation.

I doubt it will happen for Gaza in quite a while. In many ways, they are going backwards. The arrow of societal change can point in any direction.

Yes, I'm watching the US re-wind all its progress over the past 60 years in just a couple right now.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Of course it will work. It just takes time.

Only so long as there isn't a major force opposing it.

Cultural changes take time. As in more than one generation.

Doesn't mean Gaza has that long to fix the situation before it's catastrophic. China understood and made the hard choice they needed to.

 

[Toni]

That's a statement of faith, not fact.

Derec, you and I often disagree but I usually think your opinions are your own and not simply something you are parroting here.

This comment is beneath you. You may disagree or doubt that this will happen but in fact, I have all of human history on my side.

when they have the options to do so, and a reason to trust that choosing something different will be of benefit.

I do not understand what you mean exactly. They chose to seek IVF treatment even though they are broke. How is that choice of benefit to them?

They see a benefit for their current situation. You may not but they do. People who are more economically stable and who feel comfortable confident in their future tend to have smaller families.

Cultural changes take time. As in more than one generation.

I doubt it will happen for Gaza in quite a while. In many ways, they are going backwards. The arrow of societal change can point in any direction.

Or it’s just a final swing of the pendulum. That happens when change is too fast or goes too far or too far too fast. IMO, that is why we are seeing such a surge of conservatism: backlash against so much social change and progress. People all over the world in many different places fear that they will lose the good parts of their culture.