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Birth Right and The Secular Basis of Inheritance

Harry said:
The desire to help our kids is pretty powerful.

That's key. It's like alcohol or marijuana. If you ban something that lots of people want to do, it causes problems.

And as Bronzeage said, its better for them to pay as they go rather than do the big inheritance tax. The forced heirship thing is also an interesting possibility that I hadn't considered. It prevents what the big problem is: huge estates and old money, while not being a seemingly punitive death tax to be avoided.
 
Harry said:
The desire to help our kids is pretty powerful.

That's key. It's like alcohol or marijuana. If you ban something that lots of people want to do, it causes problems.

And as Bronzeage said, its better for them to pay as they go rather than do the big inheritance tax. The forced heirship thing is also an interesting possibility that I hadn't considered. It prevents what the big problem is: huge estates and old money, while not being a seemingly punitive death tax to be avoided.

The problem with "pay as you go" is that we generally tax from cash flow rather than assets. Fixed assets aren't very liquid.
 
I play Crusader Kings 2 quite a bit and gavelkind succession is the worst succession.

That's pretty funny! I believe that the worse thing a person can do is to rob their children of the joy of working hard and making it on your own. However, my goal is to pay for all my kids education, provide a starter house, and keep a vacation home (that has been in the family for 4 generations) free for all to use. Anything else will be left for the lord to distribute (just kidding, but I do have several charities that I'd support). I think that if we taxed everyone's entire estate away, you'd find great attempts to hide wealth. The desire to help our kids is pretty powerful.

I think you will find that there are already great attempts to hide wealth in order to avoid and/or evade tax.

People hate paying taxes, and will put quite an effort into not doing so. That's not a reason to stop collecting taxes though - it is a reason to eliminate as many loopholes as possible.
 
So, the question remains, Why? Are you going after a rich man's estate simply because it's easy, or has this man and his estate benefited from government services at a higher rate than his poor neighbors?

Absent some spiritual argument, after he is dead, there is no such man. This gets us right back to the question in the OP. Why should the default be that the property that was owned by this man should be split unevenly among members of his society, to his children?
 
So, the question remains, Why? Are you going after a rich man's estate simply because it's easy, or has this man and his estate benefited from government services at a higher rate than his poor neighbors?

Absent some spiritual argument, after he is dead, there is no such man. This gets us right back to the question in the OP. Why should the default be that the property that was owned by this man should be split unevenly among members of his society, to his children?

I think that the person who created the wealth should have the default right to distribute the wealth where he/she wants at death. Having said that, I recognize that infrastructure (paid for by taxes) contributes to everyone's success. I have no problem with a fair tax. I would also tax larger estates aggressively. I think that estate taxes are exempt on estates lower than 5 million. I would tax the hell out of higher estates. But there isn't a person on this forum who wouldn't want to pass something on to their kids. We all want our kids to have an easier life than what we had. Am I wrong?

Secondly, I think that life will be tougher for the younger people. But that is probably for another thread........
 
Money is literally a statement that society owes you something. Allowing such debts to be passed on to descendants who did nothing to warrant such an entitlement makes no more sense than allowing criminal liability to be passed on to descendants who broke no laws.

If a man commits a murder, and is sentenced to 20 years in jail, but dies one year later, we don't imprison his son for the remaining 19 years. So if the same man instead does something that makes him rich enough to live for a hundred years, without ever having to work another day in his life, why is it just that his son and his grandson should get the benefit of that fraction of this wealth not spent by the person who earned it?

If it is just that Stalin's granddaughter is not up on charges of crimes against humanity for her grandfather's actions, how is it just that the Duke of Westminster is the wealthiest man in the world under the age of 30, with a net worth of ~US$13 billion (with a 'b'), due almost entirely to the service given to Charles I in the 1620s by an ancestor of 16 removes?
 
Money is literally a statement that society owes you something. Allowing such debts to be passed on to descendants who did nothing to warrant such an entitlement makes no more sense than allowing criminal liability to be passed on to descendants who broke no laws.

If a man commits a murder, and is sentenced to 20 years in jail, but dies one year later, we don't imprison his son for the remaining 19 years. So if the same man instead does something that makes him rich enough to live for a hundred years, without ever having to work another day in his life, why is it just that his son and his grandson should get the benefit of that fraction of this wealth not spent by the person who earned it?

If it is just that Stalin's granddaughter is not up on charges of crimes against humanity for her grandfather's actions, how is it just that the Duke of Westminster is the wealthiest man in the world under the age of 30, with a net worth of ~US$13 billion (with a 'b'), due almost entirely to the service given to Charles I in the 1620s by an ancestor of 16 removes?

I disagree. I think that family contributes greatly to a person's success.
 
Money is literally a statement that society owes you something. Allowing such debts to be passed on to descendants who did nothing to warrant such an entitlement makes no more sense than allowing criminal liability to be passed on to descendants who broke no laws.

If a man commits a murder, and is sentenced to 20 years in jail, but dies one year later, we don't imprison his son for the remaining 19 years. So if the same man instead does something that makes him rich enough to live for a hundred years, without ever having to work another day in his life, why is it just that his son and his grandson should get the benefit of that fraction of this wealth not spent by the person who earned it?

If it is just that Stalin's granddaughter is not up on charges of crimes against humanity for her grandfather's actions, how is it just that the Duke of Westminster is the wealthiest man in the world under the age of 30, with a net worth of ~US$13 billion (with a 'b'), due almost entirely to the service given to Charles I in the 1620s by an ancestor of 16 removes?

I disagree with your logic.

Accumulating wealth implies a person takes ownership of a real, physical thing, and is not a debt to society. When a person dies with an amount of money, they have put work into a system, and received output in return. As an autonomous person with their own property, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to do what they want with it?

Scratch out humans and make an analogy to squirrels. If a squirrel collects a bunch of nuts, dies, and it's children are left to try and survive, in the perspective of the squirrel that's died why would they not want their storage to go to their children? Their children are their responsibility. It's no different from money.

Maybe in someone's version of an ideal world your logic makes sense, but if someone works their whole life, accumulates energy, and it's willed away from them when they die, that's theft.
 
Money is literally a statement that society owes you something. Allowing such debts to be passed on to descendants who did nothing to warrant such an entitlement makes no more sense than allowing criminal liability to be passed on to descendants who broke no laws.

If a man commits a murder, and is sentenced to 20 years in jail, but dies one year later, we don't imprison his son for the remaining 19 years. So if the same man instead does something that makes him rich enough to live for a hundred years, without ever having to work another day in his life, why is it just that his son and his grandson should get the benefit of that fraction of this wealth not spent by the person who earned it?

If it is just that Stalin's granddaughter is not up on charges of crimes against humanity for her grandfather's actions, how is it just that the Duke of Westminster is the wealthiest man in the world under the age of 30, with a net worth of ~US$13 billion (with a 'b'), due almost entirely to the service given to Charles I in the 1620s by an ancestor of 16 removes?

I disagree. I think that family contributes greatly to a person's success.

You think that the six Duke of Westminster could credit a sizable fraction of his wealth prior to his death to his son? That seems more than a little implausible; the current (7th) duke was born in 1991, and was 25 when he inherited ~US$13 billion from his father - what fraction of that do you imagine he was responsible for earning? It can't have been much, given that most of it was the property owned by the 5th duke, who died in 1979.

Parents contribute greatly to the success of their children, without a doubt. But children rarely contribute in any significant way to the success of their parents. So why should they be granted the ownership of society's debt to that parent? And why should such a debt be allowed to pass down for hundreds of years? We don't pass along debts that go the other way - such as criminal liability; So how is it just to pass on earnings to people who didn't earn them?
 
Money is literally a statement that society owes you something. Allowing such debts to be passed on to descendants who did nothing to warrant such an entitlement makes no more sense than allowing criminal liability to be passed on to descendants who broke no laws.

If a man commits a murder, and is sentenced to 20 years in jail, but dies one year later, we don't imprison his son for the remaining 19 years. So if the same man instead does something that makes him rich enough to live for a hundred years, without ever having to work another day in his life, why is it just that his son and his grandson should get the benefit of that fraction of this wealth not spent by the person who earned it?

If it is just that Stalin's granddaughter is not up on charges of crimes against humanity for her grandfather's actions, how is it just that the Duke of Westminster is the wealthiest man in the world under the age of 30, with a net worth of ~US$13 billion (with a 'b'), due almost entirely to the service given to Charles I in the 1620s by an ancestor of 16 removes?

I disagree with your logic.

Accumulating wealth implies a person takes ownership of a real, physical thing, and is not a debt to society.
It is BY DEFINITION. That's what money IS - a record of how much society owes to the person who holds that money.
When a person dies with an amount of money, they have put work into a system, and received output in return. As an autonomous person with their own property, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to do what they want with it?
Because they are dead, and dead people don't want things.
Scratch out humans and make an analogy to squirrels. If a squirrel collects a bunch of nuts, dies, and it's children are left to try and survive, in the perspective of the squirrel that's died why would they not want their storage to go to their children? Their children are their responsibility. It's no different from money.

Maybe in someone's version of an ideal world your logic makes sense, but if someone works their whole life, accumulates energy, and it's willed away from them when they die, that's theft.

You can't steal from a dead person. Dead people have neither possessions nor desires.

And squirrels don't leave anything to their heirs - their stash of nuts goes to whatever animal finds them first, or (more often) goes un-eaten.
 
I disagree with your logic.

Accumulating wealth implies a person takes ownership of a real, physical thing, and is not a debt to society.
It is BY DEFINITION. That's what money IS - a record of how much society owes to the person who holds that money.
When a person dies with an amount of money, they have put work into a system, and received output in return. As an autonomous person with their own property, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to do what they want with it?
Because they are dead, and dead people don't want things.
Scratch out humans and make an analogy to squirrels. If a squirrel collects a bunch of nuts, dies, and it's children are left to try and survive, in the perspective of the squirrel that's died why would they not want their storage to go to their children? Their children are their responsibility. It's no different from money.

Maybe in someone's version of an ideal world your logic makes sense, but if someone works their whole life, accumulates energy, and it's willed away from them when they die, that's theft.

You can't steal from a dead person. Dead people have neither possessions nor desires.

And squirrels don't leave anything to their heirs - their stash of nuts goes to whatever animal finds them first, or (more often) goes un-eaten.

What does society owe someone with a lot of money? Goods and services? That's not a debt, that's an exchange.

- - - Updated - - -

The real problem here isn't transferring wealth down the family line, it's allowing people to accumulate thousands of times more money than they could ever need for a basic, comfortable lifestyle.
 
It is BY DEFINITION. That's what money IS - a record of how much society owes to the person who holds that money.
When a person dies with an amount of money, they have put work into a system, and received output in return. As an autonomous person with their own property, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to do what they want with it?
Because they are dead, and dead people don't want things.
Scratch out humans and make an analogy to squirrels. If a squirrel collects a bunch of nuts, dies, and it's children are left to try and survive, in the perspective of the squirrel that's died why would they not want their storage to go to their children? Their children are their responsibility. It's no different from money.

Maybe in someone's version of an ideal world your logic makes sense, but if someone works their whole life, accumulates energy, and it's willed away from them when they die, that's theft.

You can't steal from a dead person. Dead people have neither possessions nor desires.

And squirrels don't leave anything to their heirs - their stash of nuts goes to whatever animal finds them first, or (more often) goes un-eaten.

What does society owe someone with a lot of money? Goods and services? That's not a debt, that's an exchange.

It's a debt. Money is worthless except as a placeholder for debt.

Money is debt and debt is money. That's what they are.
 
The real problem here isn't transferring wealth down the family line, it's allowing people to accumulate thousands of times more money than they could ever need for a basic, comfortable lifestyle.

Of course.

But the primary way that people accumulate such vast amounts of money is through primogeniture.

Inheritance plus primogeniture leads to concentration of un-earned wealth - and if you doubt that, take a look at the seventh Duke of Westminster.

In modern times, families no longer have large numbers of children, so Napoleon's strategy no longer works. What does work is inheritance taxes on large estates.
 
It is BY DEFINITION. That's what money IS - a record of how much society owes to the person who holds that money.
When a person dies with an amount of money, they have put work into a system, and received output in return. As an autonomous person with their own property, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to do what they want with it?
Because they are dead, and dead people don't want things.
Scratch out humans and make an analogy to squirrels. If a squirrel collects a bunch of nuts, dies, and it's children are left to try and survive, in the perspective of the squirrel that's died why would they not want their storage to go to their children? Their children are their responsibility. It's no different from money.

Maybe in someone's version of an ideal world your logic makes sense, but if someone works their whole life, accumulates energy, and it's willed away from them when they die, that's theft.

You can't steal from a dead person. Dead people have neither possessions nor desires.

And squirrels don't leave anything to their heirs - their stash of nuts goes to whatever animal finds them first, or (more often) goes un-eaten.

What does society owe someone with a lot of money? Goods and services? That's not a debt, that's an exchange.

It's a debt. Money is worthless except as a placeholder for debt.

Money is debt and debt is money. That's what they are.

Money is credit. You supply a good or service for someone but instead of supplying goods or services of equal value in exchange, they give you money. The money you've received represents the fact that the other person owes you goods or services to the value of those you provided to them.

Any person who has money is therefore owed debts, or has credit.

Therefore, inheritance is literally receiving credit for something that someone else has done.

[/hair_splitting]
 
It is BY DEFINITION. That's what money IS - a record of how much society owes to the person who holds that money.
When a person dies with an amount of money, they have put work into a system, and received output in return. As an autonomous person with their own property, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to do what they want with it?
Because they are dead, and dead people don't want things.
Scratch out humans and make an analogy to squirrels. If a squirrel collects a bunch of nuts, dies, and it's children are left to try and survive, in the perspective of the squirrel that's died why would they not want their storage to go to their children? Their children are their responsibility. It's no different from money.

Maybe in someone's version of an ideal world your logic makes sense, but if someone works their whole life, accumulates energy, and it's willed away from them when they die, that's theft.

You can't steal from a dead person. Dead people have neither possessions nor desires.

And squirrels don't leave anything to their heirs - their stash of nuts goes to whatever animal finds them first, or (more often) goes un-eaten.

What does society owe someone with a lot of money? Goods and services? That's not a debt, that's an exchange.

It's a debt. Money is worthless except as a placeholder for debt.

Money is debt and debt is money. That's what they are.

Ok, I'm going to try to better understand your viewpoint. This is how I see money:

1) Person A does work for material wealth in the form of money
2) Person B provides goods or services in the form of work in exchange for person A's money
3) Now person A has goods or services, and person B has the money *he or she worked for*

Maybe in some scenario calling someone's wealth a debt to society makes sense, I just don't understand how the word 'debt' applies here.

A basic definition: debt - something, typically money, that is owed or due

So forgetting econ 101 for a second, if someone has money they can exchange it for something else. A person that provides a good or service in exchange for someone's money doesn't *owe* them something, they're providing them something in exchange for something else. In my head that's fundamentally different from borrowing from and then re-paying someone.

In my head, this is an important distinction because it's the work that someone does which provides output (wealth) for that person. Sure we've created a society where physical currency is the means of exchange, but in a materialistic sense this 'wealth' belongs to that person. In other words, if you acquire something, you by definition own it unless someone physically or legally takes it away from you. And in our world we are legally entitled to the wealth that we accumulate. I don't think this is a coincidence, it's because money is a physical representation of an individual's physical energy storage, not some vague concept defined by nation-states. So when we die, we currently have the legal right to distribute our own wealth how we like.

If that's not logically sound, please explain where I'm going wrong.
 
The real problem here isn't transferring wealth down the family line, it's allowing people to accumulate thousands of times more money than they could ever need for a basic, comfortable lifestyle.

Of course.

But the primary way that people accumulate such vast amounts of money is through primogeniture.

Inheritance plus primogeniture leads to concentration of un-earned wealth - and if you doubt that, take a look at the seventh Duke of Westminster.

In modern times, families no longer have large numbers of children, so Napoleon's strategy no longer works. What does work is inheritance taxes on large estates.

See I'm of two minds about this because at a basic level power by definition concentrates more power. So I think physically, inequality will tend to increase over time by natural law. I don't like that, but at the same time I think people have a fundamental right to their own money.

So we're at the beginning of the modern world where we need to choose what type of society we want people to live in, and how to structure the economy. At one end of the spectrum is biological darwinism, and at the other end of the spectrum is idealism. The most effective solution will fall somewhere between those two extremes, and is something that'll probably reveal itself in time.
 
It is BY DEFINITION. That's what money IS - a record of how much society owes to the person who holds that money.
When a person dies with an amount of money, they have put work into a system, and received output in return. As an autonomous person with their own property, I don't see why they shouldn't be able to do what they want with it?
Because they are dead, and dead people don't want things.
Scratch out humans and make an analogy to squirrels. If a squirrel collects a bunch of nuts, dies, and it's children are left to try and survive, in the perspective of the squirrel that's died why would they not want their storage to go to their children? Their children are their responsibility. It's no different from money.

Maybe in someone's version of an ideal world your logic makes sense, but if someone works their whole life, accumulates energy, and it's willed away from them when they die, that's theft.

You can't steal from a dead person. Dead people have neither possessions nor desires.

And squirrels don't leave anything to their heirs - their stash of nuts goes to whatever animal finds them first, or (more often) goes un-eaten.

What does society owe someone with a lot of money? Goods and services? That's not a debt, that's an exchange.

It's a debt. Money is worthless except as a placeholder for debt.

Money is debt and debt is money. That's what they are.

Ok, I'm going to try to better understand your viewpoint. This is how I see money:

1) Person A does work for material wealth in the form of money
Where does that money come from?
2) Person B provides goods or services in the form of work in exchange for person A's money
Where did person A get money from?
3) Now person A has goods or services, and person B has the money *he or she worked for*
But how did person A get money to begin with?
Maybe in some scenario calling someone's wealth a debt to society makes sense, I just don't understand how the word 'debt' applies here.
Because money makes debt transferable. If you go back along the chain, ultimately you find that money represents a debt.
A basic definition: debt - something, typically money, that is owed or due
I would say 'something, typically measured in dollars, that is owed or due'. Dollars are the unit of debt, just as Joules are the unit of energy.
So forgetting econ 101 for a second, if someone has money they can exchange it for something else. A person that provides a good or service in exchange for someone's money doesn't *owe* them something, they're providing them something in exchange for something else. In my head that's fundamentally different from borrowing from and then re-paying someone.
But the money still represents somebody's debt. It exists because (and only because) someone owes the holder of the money some goods or services - and it is useful because it makes that debt transferable
In my head, this is an important distinction because it's the work that someone does which provides output (wealth) for that person. Sure we've created a society where physical currency is the means of exchange, but in a materialistic sense this 'wealth' belongs to that person. In other words, if you acquire something, you by definition own it unless someone physically or legally takes it away from you. And in our world we are legally entitled to the wealth that we accumulate. I don't think this is a coincidence, it's because money is a physical representation of an individual's physical energy storage, not some vague concept defined by nation-states. So when we die, we currently have the legal right to distribute our own wealth how we like.

If that's not logically sound, please explain where I'm going wrong.
You seem to think that money is a good or a service; But it's not. The money in your wallet is a symbol of the fact that you have provided goods and services to someone, but have not yet received any goods or services in return.

When you think about where money comes from, it all becomes clear. Money appears from nothing when a debt is created. It vanishes when that debt is repaid. While the debt exists, the money acts as a way of transferring that debt to other people.

Consider a barter economy. I have a goat; You want a goat. You have ten chickens; I want ten chickens. We swap. No money is involved, no debts are created.

Now, what if I don't have a goat with me, but I still want your ten chickens? Well, I have a goat at home; So I will give you a piece of paper that says 'Bilby owes Rousseau one goat'. When you are ready, you come and see me, and I give you a goat, and destroy the paper. That paper is a token of the debt I owe you.

Now, perhaps you also want a pig. So you go to the pigman, and he says "I will give you a pig in exchange for a goat". You don't have a goat, yet. But you can cross out your name on the paper that says I owe you a goat, so now you have a paper that says 'Bilby owes the bearer one goat', and give that to the pigman, so that he can come and get a goat from me when he wants one. You have created money - in the form of a one goat bill, drawn on the bank of bilby. That paper is not intrinsically worth anything. But it represents a debt, that you are owed, and can transfer to another person. Whether the pigman will accept it depends only on whether he trusts that I will make good on my debt - whether the bank of bilby is a trusted institution.

Money is the above process writ large. We invent a unit called the 'dollar', which allows us to float the price of anything else on the open market - a goat or a pig is worth $10 today, and a chicken $1 - but now, if the demand for pork goes up, we can increase the price of a pig without affecting the relative prices of chickens or goats, which makes business much more convenient. If the price of goats goes through the floor, you can still swap your $10 bill for 10 chickens, so you are less exposed to risk than you were when holding commodity based money.

Money arises when someone commits to owing someone something. I tell the bank that I will owe them a house; They give me money to represent that debt - bingo, I just got a mortgage. If I give the money back, the bank destroys it, and they no longer have a claim on my house. I give my time to my boss; He gives me money that he got from our customers, who got their money from their customers, who borrowed it on their credit cards - it didn't exist until they spent it, and as soon as they created the money by putting a purchase on their credit card, they created an exactly equal debt. My pay is the debt my boss's customers' customers' accrued.

Money is tokens representing debt. That's all money is. And we value it because it's backed by the government - the value of the money is entirely dependent on our trust that the government will ensure that everyone (including the government themselves) will make good on the debts that the money represents. Quite literally, your net worth is a numerical indicator of how much society is in debt to you - how much you have given, but not yet gotten back.

He who dies in net debt, wins.
 
Absent some spiritual argument, after he is dead, there is no such man. This gets us right back to the question in the OP. Why should the default be that the property that was owned by this man should be split unevenly among members of his society, to his children?

I think that the person who created the wealth should have the default right to distribute the wealth where he/she wants at death. Having said that, I recognize that infrastructure (paid for by taxes) contributes to everyone's success. I have no problem with a fair tax. I would also tax larger estates aggressively. I think that estate taxes are exempt on estates lower than 5 million. I would tax the hell out of higher estates. But there isn't a person on this forum who wouldn't want to pass something on to their kids. We all want our kids to have an easier life than what we had. Am I wrong?

Secondly, I think that life will be tougher for the younger people. But that is probably for another thread........

Technically the man created no such wealth, but merely accumulated it.
 
Then wouldn't they just give the money as payment for some invented "service" rather than a gift. In fact, they could likely set up some fund to pay their decedents for some annual "service" so they only get % of the $ each year for the rest of their life, thus reducing the tax rate comparing to paying them a lump sum.

Whether that is or is not possible depends on how the system is implemented. Certainly a poorly implemented system with lots of loopholes could allow that to occur.

The idea that such loopholes are a law of nature and are incapable of being plugged by carefully written legislation is one to which I do not subscribe - but it is a VERY popular argument from opponents of pretty much all tax regimes ever.

Some loopholes can be closed, but mostly just the loopholes that were put their intentionally in the first place. Only the most aggressively authoritarian system that control most of what people can and cannot do with their money are capable of closing all loopholes. The second the system gives any liberty to people, it opens the door for loopholes. Only a system that basically made it illegal to hire relatives to anything would be able to stop what I am talking about. There is no way to close such a loophole without also prohibiting countless legitimate acts that we don't want to prohibit. Whether a "job" is legit is way too arbitrary and subjective a determination for there to be any specific legislation capable of spelling it out.
 
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