Hate speech and genocidal speech are not the same thing. In some European countries Nazi party is illegal, just like al Qaeda is illegal here...making Nazis illegal and KKK illegal as terrorist organizations, just like al Qaeda.
Well, you are going to have to be clear about exactly what you mean by "genocidal speech". Again, if that involves the active encouragement to kill, assault, or otherwise commit violence, against individuals or groups, then there are already existing laws against that and it should be pursued by those means.
Yes, in some European countries, the Nazi party is illegal. I think that is wrong. The only circumstance where I can begin to see that as reasonable is if, say, Germany had just been defeated in a calamitous war, but ideally, there should be no restrictions on mere membership in a political party. That is a basic, necessary freedom. Note, not even in organizations that are considered inherently criminal is mere membership a crime. It is not a crime to be a member of a gang. And if a gang member wants to go into the streets and preach the virtues of the gang, then they should be allowed to do so.
The case of Al Qaeda is one where a state of war has been designated on foreign entity, and that has gone through the formal process of war declaration by Congress. Unfortunately, war is reality that we must deal with, but strict limits on the ability to engage in war are necessary, and in the US, involve various branches of government checking each other. That being said, I have been an outspoken critic of many aspects of the War on Terror, including the closely related civil and political rights travesty, the Orwellian PATRIOT act, and the intolerable massive surveillance apparatus that has been created, most notably those related to the programs exposed by hero and patriot Edward Snowden. These are basic civil rights issues I always assumed were understood by so-called liberals in the United States, "civil rights" being something they love to give lip-service to. Instead, I'm finding out that would should actually
consider weakening our civil rights even more. Furthermore, under the pretext of this "War on Terror", the US has clearly engaged in many illegitimate military conflicts, which demonstrate the extent to which America has abandoned the principles of liberal, democratic governance. This has been a huge problem since at least Vietnam, a war where the US committed untold atrocities. And the already diluted controls allowed under the War Powers Resolution have been too frequently ignored. The intervention in Libya was wrong under the Obama administration, just as the bombing of Syria was wrong under the Trump administration (curiously, the latter was an example of where Trump had some support by the "liberals" in the US).
Under the pretext of pursuing "terrorists", the US has build a world-wide assassination program that designates people for assassination in a shadowy side-court. This is intolerable to liberal, democratic principles.
Finally, I will note that while Al Qaeda has had war declared on them, we still tolerate the ideological basis of Al Qaeda, Salafism, in the United States. And I grew up near one of the largest Salafist schools in the United States, that preaches open intolerance.
ETA: I will add that the original post I wrote was in reference to shouting people down which is what these specific members did to ACLU:
Don2 said:
So, we shouldn't silence pro-genocide political parties, even if they win elections, such as the Presidential election?
The "should" or "should not" question was not about current laws but instead what we should do--to include shouting down or changing laws wrt to party membership in the same way we illegalize al Qaeda.
On questions of "should":
Broadly speaking, you shouldn't be allowed to "shout people down" for expressing political opinions.
Shouting down the ACLU is not only moronic, I consider such people dangerous. This used to be the purview of the right-wing in America. But here we are, "liberals" shouting down the ACLU.
I think the people shouting down Ben Shapiro are similarly moronic, and it is unjustifiable. The only thing they demonstrate is that they are a bunch of functionally-illiterate jackasses. Not only that, it is entirely counterproductive, and only gives Ben Shapiro's conservative ideas more power.
I think people who shout down Milo Yiannopoulos are being counterproductive.
I think that Richard Spencer should be allowed to march without being shouted down, and white nationalists should have been allowed to hold their stupid rally. The ACLU was 100% in the right to defend them, because that is what having civil rights entails. The best outcome would have been ridicule, and the eventual removal of the statue as had been planned from the beginning. Indeed, all they really accomplished was to
hasten the process of removal of Confederate statues from the public sphere in the US.
I think that those doing the shouting down in these cases are all equivocating these groups as Nazis and Nazi sympathizers, and that is the biggest stupidity of all.
I think I've been sufficiently clear about my ideas regarding changing the laws with respect to party membership.
So if the Nazis took over, what would be your plan? I think there comes a time when you have to take action physically but before that point in time you have to take different actions.
So, I also think it is clear what I think about people who advocate that we abandon basic civil rights, and start advocating for the removal of civil liberties of groups of people, that is, what I think about Nazis: I oppose them. If such a group ever came to and started dissolving civil liberties, it needs to be opposed by force. The point in time were they need to be opposed is when they start advocating for the dissolution of civil and political rights. It should always involve political opposition at first. Indeed, this has been the response to the Trump Administrations Muslim Ban. It is
being challenged on the
basis of fundamental civil rights.
But the implication here is that what we are seeing currently counts as "Nazis coming to power", and that I do not agree with at all. I find that incredibly historically myopic, and symptomatic of a sort of siloed view of the world that is endemic to current politics. I think it is a fundamental failure of the education system. But even if I granted your view as correct, indeed, especially *if it were a real risk that we have Nazi sympathizers in our government*, the the defense of civil and political rights is *even more paramount*.
