Both the Israelis and the Palestinians suck

[DrZoidberg]

Am I the only one who thinks both sides are fucking idiots who deserve to die? Both sides punish the other sides civilians indiscriminately. Both sides are genocidal fucking maniacs seemingly unable to see any fault among their own.

Here's my list of stupid shit in Israel/Palestine. It could be longer:

1) Gaza is a poverty-stricken shit hole. Desperate people do desperate things. As long as their economy is shit they'll be radicalised. People need options in life. People without options are dangerous. The Israelis doesn't seem to understand this connection. They've actually imposed sanctions and limit the access to foreign aid. This is not going to help solve this conflict. It can only act to make it worse.

2) Unless the Palestinian authorities do everything they can to stop the rocket launches, Israel is fully within their rights to retaliate in any way they please. Is there any doubt about this? Not only doesn't the Palestinian government try to stop it. They are funding it. It's one of the things they do. Also, they're not doing shit to stop suicide bombers. Another problem.

3) Gaza is one of the worlds most densily populated places on Earth. If Hammas are shooting rockets from Gaza it will be in the vicinity of children. This is unavoidable. That's not the same thing as using human shields. Likewise, if Israel choses to retaliate children will get hurt. I'm convinced both sides are doing what they can to avoid hurting Palestinian children. Gaza is just a very bad place to have a fight in.

4) Israel is by definition NOT a Jewish state. About half the population is Muslim. I don't understand why they don't just separate church from state? Jews are among the most secularised and athiestic groups of people on the planet anyway. Who gives a flying fuck what a handful Orthodox fuckwits think about anything anyway. They're fucking NUTS. Maintaining Israel as a Jewish state is like poking a tiger in the eye with a pointy stick and being surpirsed when the tiger gets pissed off. It's just asking for it.

5) Hammas has it in their official charter to wipe Israel off the face of the earth and kill all Jews. Nobody in their right mind would be ok with a neighbour like that and well within their rights to defend themselves. Yes, the mere fact that they were voted into power means that Israel has a right to take action. The Palestinians really voted these fucking idiots into power. Yes, I'm aware that the Palestinian authority is a farce. It's corrupt and a shambles. The Palestinians are fucked no matter who they vote for. But voting for Hammas is to actively pick a fight. Well.. bu hu hu if they got what they asked for. Yes, this was in 2006. And now it's been almost ten years later, and Fatah is in power. But anyway. Palestinians are not a peace loveing people who just want to get along with their neighbours

6) both sides have plenty of moderate people who are doing their best to reach out and try to make friends and build bridges. But not enough of them.


It looks to me like both sides in this conflict are doing their best to annoy the other side and shouldn't crying about it when the other side gets pissed off. Both sides seem utterly and completely devoid of empathy or understanding regarding how the other side might feel about being pummelled by rockets.

It looks to me like they deserve each other.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Am I the only one who thinks both sides are fucking idiots who deserve to die? Both sides punish the other sides civilians indiscriminately. Both sides are genocidal fucking maniacs seemingly unable to see any fault among their own.

Here's my list of stupid shit in Israel/Palestine. It could be longer:

1) Gaza is a poverty-stricken shit hole. Desperate people do desperate things. As long as their economy is shit they'll be radicalised. People need options in life. People without options are dangerous. The Israelis doesn't seem to understand this connection. They've actually imposed sanctions and limit the access to foreign aid. This is not going to help solve this conflict. It can only act to make it worse.

2) Unless the Palestinian authorities do everything they can to stop the rocket launches, Israel is fully within their rights to retaliate in any way they please. Is there any doubt about this? Not only doesn't the Palestinian government try to stop it. They are funding it. It's one of the things they do. Also, they're not doing shit to stop suicide bombers. Another problem.

3) Gaza is one of the worlds most densily populated places on Earth. If Hammas are shooting rockets from Gaza it will be in the vicinity of children. This is unavoidable. That's not the same thing as using human shields. Likewise, if Israel choses to retaliate children will get hurt. I'm convinced both sides are doing what they can to avoid hurting Palestinian children. Gaza is just a very bad place to have a fight in.

4) Israel is by definition NOT a Jewish state. About half the population is Muslim. I don't understand why they don't just separate church from state? Jews are among the most secularised and athiestic groups of people on the planet anyway. Who gives a flying fuck what a handful Orthodox fuckwits think about anything anyway. They're fucking NUTS. Maintaining Israel as a Jewish state is like poking a tiger in the eye with a pointy stick and being surpirsed when the tiger gets pissed off. It's just asking for it.

5) Hammas has it in their official charter to wipe Israel off the face of the earth and kill all Jews. Nobody in their right mind would be ok with a neighbour like that and well within their rights to defend themselves. Yes, the mere fact that they were voted into power means that Israel has a right to take action. The Palestinians really voted these fucking idiots into power. Yes, I'm aware that the Palestinian authority is a farce. It's corrupt and a shambles. The Palestinians are fucked no matter who they vote for. But voting for Hammas is to actively pick a fight. Well.. bu hu hu if they got what they asked for. Yes, this was in 2006. And now it's been almost ten years later, and Fatah is in power. But anyway. Palestinians are not a peace loveing people who just want to get along with their neighbours

6) both sides have plenty of moderate people who are doing their best to reach out and try to make friends and build bridges. But not enough of them.


It looks to me like both sides in this conflict are doing their best to annoy the other side and shouldn't crying about it when the other side gets pissed off. Both sides seem utterly and completely devoid of empathy or understanding regarding how the other side might feel about being pummelled by rockets.

It looks to me like they deserve each other.

Life is not like the movies as I think you realize. If we are looking for the 'good guys' vs the 'bad guys' you will find that both sides have good and bad guys.
The war is continuing as the fanatics on both sides interact with each other.
The Palestinians of course are not the only ones who vote idiots in power.
Hamas however did agree to recognize Israel within the pre-1967 borders.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Am I the only one who thinks both sides are fucking idiots who deserve to die? Both sides punish the other sides civilians indiscriminately. Both sides are genocidal fucking maniacs seemingly unable to see any fault among their own.

Here's my list of stupid shit in Israel/Palestine. It could be longer:

1) Gaza is a poverty-stricken shit hole. Desperate people do desperate things. As long as their economy is shit they'll be radicalised. People need options in life. People without options are dangerous. The Israelis doesn't seem to understand this connection. They've actually imposed sanctions and limit the access to foreign aid. This is not going to help solve this conflict. It can only act to make it worse.

They weren't a poverty-stricken shithole at the time of the second intifada.

2) Unless the Palestinian authorities do everything they can to stop the rocket launches, Israel is fully within their rights to retaliate in any way they please. Is there any doubt about this? Not only doesn't the Palestinian government try to stop it. They are funding it. It's one of the things they do. Also, they're not doing shit to stop suicide bombers. Another problem.

Suicide bombers aren't much of an issue since the wall was built, although the IDF is facing them in Gaza.

3) Gaza is one of the worlds most densily populated places on Earth. If Hammas are shooting rockets from Gaza it will be in the vicinity of children. This is unavoidable. That's not the same thing as using human shields. Likewise, if Israel choses to retaliate children will get hurt. I'm convinced both sides are doing what they can to avoid hurting Palestinian children. Gaza is just a very bad place to have a fight in.

Google satellite view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@31.4540024,34.4325105,1728m/data=!3m1!1e3

While it doesn't have the resolution to see children I doubt there are many in this image.

4) Israel is by definition NOT a Jewish state. About half the population is Muslim. I don't understand why they don't just separate church from state? Jews are among the most secularised and athiestic groups of people on the planet anyway. Who gives a flying fuck what a handful Orthodox fuckwits think about anything anyway. They're fucking NUTS. Maintaining Israel as a Jewish state is like poking a tiger in the eye with a pointy stick and being surpirsed when the tiger gets pissed off. It's just asking for it.

They created Israel to have a place of safety for Jews to go to when the next wave of antisemitism hit. There is no country on Earth other than Israel that hasn't had a period of oppressing Jews.

6) both sides have plenty of moderate people who are doing their best to reach out and try to make friends and build bridges. But not enough of them.

It takes two sides to make peace. The Israeli moderates get nowhere because there's nowhere to get.

 

[DrZoidberg]

They weren't a poverty-stricken shithole at the time of the second intifada.

2) Unless the Palestinian authorities do everything they can to stop the rocket launches, Israel is fully within their rights to retaliate in any way they please. Is there any doubt about this? Not only doesn't the Palestinian government try to stop it. They are funding it. It's one of the things they do. Also, they're not doing shit to stop suicide bombers. Another problem.

That was then. And this is now.

Suicide bombers aren't much of an issue since the wall was built, although the IDF is facing them in Gaza.

Yeah, it's hard to blame Israel for building that wall. The Palestinian authorities obviously wasn't doing enough to stop the suicide bombings. They are actively encouraging it. In that case Israel is of course empowered to do what they need to do.

3) Gaza is one of the worlds most densily populated places on Earth. If Hammas are shooting rockets from Gaza it will be in the vicinity of children. This is unavoidable. That's not the same thing as using human shields. Likewise, if Israel choses to retaliate children will get hurt. I'm convinced both sides are doing what they can to avoid hurting Palestinian children. Gaza is just a very bad place to have a fight in.

Google satellite view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@31.4540024,34.4325105,1728m/data=!3m1!1e3

While it doesn't have the resolution to see children I doubt there are many in this image.

The missile sites have to be in places where they are hidden from the air. Due to the fact that Israel has control of the airspace. There's no forrests or mountains to speak of in Gaza. That only leaves populated areas. Hard to blame them for that.

4) Israel is by definition NOT a Jewish state. About half the population is Muslim. I don't understand why they don't just separate church from state? Jews are among the most secularised and athiestic groups of people on the planet anyway. Who gives a flying fuck what a handful Orthodox fuckwits think about anything anyway. They're fucking NUTS. Maintaining Israel as a Jewish state is like poking a tiger in the eye with a pointy stick and being surpirsed when the tiger gets pissed off. It's just asking for it.

They created Israel to have a place of safety for Jews to go to when the next wave of antisemitism hit. There is no country on Earth other than Israel that hasn't had a period of oppressing Jews.

So what? Why does that give Jews the right to grab Palestinian land? Evils don't cancel each other out. Karma isn't really a thing, you know? Why should Palestinian care about historical pogroms? Displacing Palestinians and giving their land to the Jews only moves the problem around. Now we've suddenly got another landless ethnic group. Problem NOT solved.

Also, the Brits didn't give Palestine to the Zionists due to any pogroms. The Balfour declaration came into being become Evangelical Christianity was all the rage among the British aristocracy, and they all wanted the Jews to go "home" so we'd get the second coming of Christ. That's a loony reason to support the formation of Israel IMHO

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah+43:5-6&version=KJV

6) both sides have plenty of moderate people who are doing their best to reach out and try to make friends and build bridges. But not enough of them.

It takes two sides to make peace. The Israeli moderates get nowhere because there's nowhere to get.

It's a question of numbers. When enough Palestinians and Isrealis have more to gain from peace than conflict, it'll happen. But as it is now, the Palestinians have very little to gain from a peace. They've already lost everything. Backing off now, they'll be perpetually fucked. Making Israel give up it's claim on being a purely Jewish state is very reasonable. So is the demand to make Hammas give up it's plans to exterminate all Jews.

 

[prideandfall]

you're not the only one - though, i don't actually give any shits whatsoever about the two positions in the conflict, a land dispute on the other side of the planet simply isn't my problem.
however, i am so sick of the constant, never-ending barrage of news and discussion about the area that i seriously wish that a nuke or 10 would go off and turn the entire geographic region into an uninhabitable wasteland, just so i stop having to read and hear about it all the damn time.

 

[DrZoidberg]

you're not the only one - though, i don't actually give any shits whatsoever about the two positions in the conflict, a land dispute on the other side of the planet simply isn't my problem.
however, i am so sick of the constant, never-ending barrage of news and discussion about the area that i seriously wish that a nuke or 10 would go off and turn the entire geographic region into an uninhabitable wasteland, just so i stop having to read and hear about it all the damn time.

What bores me about the conflict is the hyperbole in the press. One side are either innocent victims or genocidal. There doesn't seem to be much nuance in the reporting.

 

[4321lynx]

Dr Zoidberg said

Unless the Palestinian authorities do everything they can to stop the rocket launches, Israel is fully within their rights to retaliate in any way they please. Is there any doubt about this?

Yes, there is doubt. I agree with most of what you say, but this sounds like Netanyahu. "Any way they please"???? Hyperbole I hope. Any way they please ? No. Indiscriminate bombing? WMD's? Gas chambers? no, no no. Though I think both sides would use any or all of those, if they thought they could get away with it and win. I don't think their moderates exist in any number to make a difference.

As it is Netanyahu received a gift from Hamas when they rejected a cease-fire at the beginning of this, he must have hated the idea that they might accept and he could not go into Gaza with guns blazing and look for the tunnels. Mossad must have agents as members of the Hamas government.

Yes, both sides suck. And they, and their gods and religions, deserve one another. But don't give either side a carte-blanche to do anything they please, not even as a joke.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Dr Zoidberg said

Unless the Palestinian authorities do everything they can to stop the rocket launches, Israel is fully within their rights to retaliate in any way they please. Is there any doubt about this?

Yes, there is doubt. I agree with most of what you say, but this sounds like Netanyahu. "Any way they please"???? Hyperbole I hope. Any way they please ? No. Indiscriminate bombing? WMD's? Gas chambers? no, no no. Though I think both sides would use any or all of those, if they thought they could get away with it and win. I don't think their moderates exist in any number to make a difference.

As it is Netanyahu received a gift from Hamas when they rejected a cease-fire at the beginning of this, he must have hated the idea that they might accept and he could not go into Gaza with guns blazing and look for the tunnels. Mossad must have agents as members of the Hamas government.

Yes, both sides suck. And they, and their gods and religions, deserve one another. But don't give either side a carte-blanche to do anything they please, not even as a joke.

I was thinking about something purely defensively.... like a wall. But sure... sloppy use of language. I'd say both of them are within their right to erect a massive wall.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

What exactly are both sides' end games here?

Hamas seems to have the strategy of slightly annoying Israel with weak and ineffective rockets that sometimes kill a few people. Then step two of their plan is ... wait until Israel gets bored and concedes everything because they don't feel like bothering with it anymore? I really don't know.

Israel seems to have the strategy of just bombing the shit out of the place and killing thousands until ... the Palestinian people start seeing them as liberators and throw roses at their feet? I really don't know.

I understand their motivations and why they want to kill each other and, to be perfectly honest, if either of these groups were my neighbour I'd probably end up killing off a bunch of them as well, but it truly doesn't seem to me that either side has sat down and figured out what it wants to accomplish and how their current actions will help accomplish those goals.

 

[4321lynx]

What exactly are both sides' end games here?

Hamas seems to have the strategy of slightly annoying Israel with weak and ineffective rockets that sometimes kill a few people. Then step two of their plan is ... wait until Israel gets bored and concedes everything because they don't feel like bothering with it anymore? I really don't know.

Israel seems to have the strategy of just bombing the shit out of the place and killing thousands until ... the Palestinian people start seeing them as liberators and throw roses at their feet? I really don't know.

I understand their motivations and why they want to kill each other and, to be perfectly honest, if either of these groups were my neighbour I'd probably end up killing off a bunch of them as well, but it truly doesn't seem to me that either side has sat down and figured out what it wants to accomplish and how their current actions will help accomplish those goals.

My feelings exactly. Though I try to think and to sound like a rational humanitarian, I guess I'm two-faced about it, squeamish.

 

[Sarpedon]

Neither side has an end game, because neither side thinks things are going to end with peace.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Am I the only one who thinks both sides are fucking idiots who deserve to die?

Fucking idiots, yes. Deserve to die, no.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

They weren't a poverty-stricken shithole at the time of the second intifada.

That was then. And this is now.

The kid pleading "But I'm an orphan!" when on trial for killing his parents comes to mind.

They had the best economy of a non-oil Arab nation before they threw it away. Too bad.

The missile sites have to be in places where they are hidden from the air. Due to the fact that Israel has control of the airspace. There's no forrests or mountains to speak of in Gaza. That only leaves populated areas. Hard to blame them for that.

They could still use industrial areas. They could still use sheds and the like in farm areas.

So what? Why does that give Jews the right to grab Palestinian land? Evils don't cancel each other out. Karma isn't really a thing, you know? Why should Palestinian care about historical pogroms? Displacing Palestinians and giving their land to the Jews only moves the problem around. Now we've suddenly got another landless ethnic group. Problem NOT solved.

Again, they brought it upon themselves. If they hadn't chosen the path of war they wouldn't have lost anything.

It's a question of numbers. When enough Palestinians and Isrealis have more to gain from peace than conflict, it'll happen. But as it is now, the Palestinians have very little to gain from a peace. They've already lost everything. Backing off now, they'll be perpetually fucked. Making Israel give up it's claim on being a purely Jewish state is very reasonable. So is the demand to make Hammas give up it's plans to exterminate all Jews.

They actually have a lot to gain from peace. The lives of the Palestinians improve in times of peace and get worse in times of war. That's one reason they can't go too long without fighting--too much peace would let them have other options besides Jihad.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What exactly are both sides' end games here?

Hamas seems to have the strategy of slightly annoying Israel with weak and ineffective rockets that sometimes kill a few people. Then step two of their plan is ... wait until Israel gets bored and concedes everything because they don't feel like bothering with it anymore? I really don't know.

Their strategy is to attack Israel and then go hide behind the skirts of world opinion--get the world to pressure Israel to make concessions in order to go back to peace.

Israel seems to have the strategy of just bombing the shit out of the place and killing thousands until ... the Palestinian people start seeing them as liberators and throw roses at their feet? I really don't know.

Israel has a strategy of bombing the weapons. Tunnels are a form of weapon, that's why they're bombing lines of buildings now.

I understand their motivations and why they want to kill each other and, to be perfectly honest, if either of these groups were my neighbour I'd probably end up killing off a bunch of them as well, but it truly doesn't seem to me that either side has sat down and figured out what it wants to accomplish and how their current actions will help accomplish those goals.

Israel knows they can't actually solve the problem. So long as the Islamist money pours in for war there will be war. They even describe the current approach as mowing the grass.

 

[DrZoidberg]

What exactly are both sides' end games here?

Hamas seems to have the strategy of slightly annoying Israel with weak and ineffective rockets that sometimes kill a few people. Then step two of their plan is ... wait until Israel gets bored and concedes everything because they don't feel like bothering with it anymore? I really don't know.

Israel seems to have the strategy of just bombing the shit out of the place and killing thousands until ... the Palestinian people start seeing them as liberators and throw roses at their feet? I really don't know.

I understand their motivations and why they want to kill each other and, to be perfectly honest, if either of these groups were my neighbour I'd probably end up killing off a bunch of them as well, but it truly doesn't seem to me that either side has sat down and figured out what it wants to accomplish and how their current actions will help accomplish those goals.

My Israeli ex-wife explained it to me. Hammas strategy is to annoy Israel until they bomb the shit out of Gaza. They're doing it for the PR. There's an unhelpful Jewish characteristic that they assume the rest of the world hates them simply for being Jewish, so they think they have nothing to gain by playing PR. So they don't. They just don't give a rats ass what the rest of the world thinks. When Hammas annoys them with rockets they retaliate. Which is fully within their right IMHO. But just because it's within their rights, doesn't make it a smart move. Which it isn't, IMHO. Not helpful if the goal is to get Hammas to quit.

If the goal is to defeat the Israelis, Hammas strategy really can't succeed. The International community won't remove the only stable democracy in the Middle-East. It just won't happen. But I don't think this is their goal. I think it's local politics, within Gaza. Hammas are radicals. To get support they need to radicalise the Palestinians. Best way is to get Israel to hit them hard.

Israels strategy isn't really a strategy. It's like they think that if they hit the Palestinians hard enough the Palestinians will stop. It reminds me of the "war on terror" or "war on drugs". It's a simplistic solution to a complex problem. The typical idiotic conservative strategy. Good luck with that guys. It's not easy being stupid.

 

[DrZoidberg]

So what? Why does that give Jews the right to grab Palestinian land? Evils don't cancel each other out. Karma isn't really a thing, you know? Why should Palestinian care about historical pogroms? Displacing Palestinians and giving their land to the Jews only moves the problem around. Now we've suddenly got another landless ethnic group. Problem NOT solved.

Again, they brought it upon themselves. If they hadn't chosen the path of war they wouldn't have lost anything.

Ehe.... wait a minute? Are you seriously claiming that innocent Palestinians haven't been forced off their land? Israel has plenty of innocent Palestinian blood on their hands. Both sides are guilty of collective punishment. Collective punishment is always bad.

It's a question of numbers. When enough Palestinians and Isrealis have more to gain from peace than conflict, it'll happen. But as it is now, the Palestinians have very little to gain from a peace. They've already lost everything. Backing off now, they'll be perpetually fucked. Making Israel give up it's claim on being a purely Jewish state is very reasonable. So is the demand to make Hammas give up it's plans to exterminate all Jews.

They actually have a lot to gain from peace. The lives of the Palestinians improve in times of peace and get worse in times of war. That's one reason they can't go too long without fighting--too much peace would let them have other options besides Jihad.

Sure, but they need to believe it as well.

 

[4321lynx]

What exactly are both sides' end games here?

Hamas seems to have the strategy of slightly annoying Israel with weak and ineffective rockets that sometimes kill a few people. Then step two of their plan is ... wait until Israel gets bored and concedes everything because they don't feel like bothering with it anymore? I really don't know.

Israel seems to have the strategy of just bombing the shit out of the place and killing thousands until ... the Palestinian people start seeing them as liberators and throw roses at their feet? I really don't know.

I understand their motivations and why they want to kill each other and, to be perfectly honest, if either of these groups were my neighbour I'd probably end up killing off a bunch of them as well, but it truly doesn't seem to me that either side has sat down and figured out what it wants to accomplish and how their current actions will help accomplish those goals.

My Israeli ex-wife explained it to me. Hammas strategy is to annoy Israel until they bomb the shit out of Gaza. They're doing it for the PR. There's an unhelpful Jewish characteristic that they assume the rest of the world hates them simply for being Jewish, so they think they have nothing to gain by playing PR. So they don't. They just don't give a rats ass what the rest of the world thinks. When Hammas annoys them with rockets they retaliate. Which is fully within their right IMHO. But just because it's within their rights, doesn't make it a smart move. Which it isn't, IMHO. Not helpful if the goal is to get Hammas to quit.

If the goal is to defeat the Israelis, Hammas strategy really can't succeed. The International community won't remove the only stable democracy in the Middle-East. It just won't happen. But I don't think this is their goal. I think it's local politics, within Gaza. Hammas are radicals. To get support they need to radicalise the Palestinians. Best way is to get Israel to hit them hard.

Israels strategy isn't really a strategy. It's like they think that if they hit the Palestinians hard enough the Palestinians will stop. It reminds me of the "war on terror" or "war on drugs". It's a simplistic solution to a complex problem. The typical idiotic conservative strategy. Good luck with that guys. It's not easy being stupid.

Well, when they hit the other Arabs around them hard enough in the past those Arabs stopped. But they only stopped outwardly because they were defeated, did not really have a change of heart, and from then on used the radicals and the Palestinians as pawns in their fight.

I think you are underestimating the power of religion, even in "secular" Israel. There is the little matter of the Jewish Temple ruins, and the Mosque on top of them, and what each side thinks and believes about them, even the secular or atheist members. It is "history" all the way back to the "beginning" of the world as depicted in Genesis for both sides, an article of faith, or rather Faith with a capital fucking F. YHWH and his "Chosen" people vs ALLAH and his chosen people as "revealed" to Mohammed --- and there we are, back in the dark ages of religion and no way out. Until "religionist" becomes a word and is as odious as "racist" is at present, there is no hope.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Well, when they hit the other Arabs around them hard enough in the past those Arabs stopped. But they only stopped outwardly because they were defeated, did not really have a change of heart, and from then on used the radicals and the Palestinians as pawns in their fight.

I think you're referring to the '48 war and the Six-day war and the events surrounding it? There is no Pan-Arab movement to speak of. The Middle East is very tribal. There's very little love between ethnic groups. Baathism and religion has mostly just been pretty words without much meaning.

When Israel was formed it sent a shock through the Arab world. They all felt they should do something. But it wasn't in their back yard. It was in the Palestinians back yard. So the surrounding countries sent a symbolic invasion force that were soundly defeated. A similar thing happened in '67. Had any of the countries put their whole military force behind the invasions they would have popped Israel like a pimple. But they didn't. They were more worried about each other or internal uprisings. They felt they couldn't afford to risk the status quo. So they didn't. They committed only a fraction of their available troops. Made it look like they sent more troops than they did. Yes, it went even worse than expected. The truth is that the other Arab countries didn't and don't care about the Palestinians or their plight. That's the harsh reality. Their outrage is hollow and symbolic.

The military success of Israel isn't so much down to Israeli tenacity and skill. But it didn't hurt that the Israeli governments at the time of the war consisted mainly of old ex-Hagganah terrorists. They knew how to fight a war.

I think you are underestimating the power of religion, even in "secular" Israel. There is the little matter of the Jewish Temple ruins, and the Mosque on top of them, and what each side thinks and believes about them, even the secular or atheist members. It is "history" all the way back to the "beginning" of the world as depicted in Genesis for both sides, an article of faith, or rather Faith with a capital fucking F. YHWH and his "Chosen" people vs ALLAH and his chosen people as "revealed" to Mohammed --- and there we are, back in the dark ages of religion and no way out. Until "religionist" becomes a word and is as odious as "racist" is at present, there is no hope.

I suggest you read up a little bit more about Zionism. Theodore Herzl wasn't only Zionist, but also a communist. An atheist. So was all the top names of Zionism. A Jewish state wasn't so much Jewish prophecy as an escape from all religion and religious conflicts. The surge in religious Jewishness is a latter development. Much due to US religious Jewish funding. If you go to temple and are serious about your Jewishness there's tonnes of American scholarships to apply for. If you're not, there's hardly any. All due to American money.

Zionists settling in Israel had three things going for it:

1) Israel already had plenty of Jews. More than anywhere else.

2) They could get the support of the local rulers, the British government. Evangelical Christians wanted the Jews to go home so the second coming of Jesus would happen. They promised British protection. Zionists were poor and weak. The British government was rich and powerful. They would need protecting.

3) It would be more likely to attract even theistic Jews, than settling anywhere else.

Zionists toyed with moving to many places. The most serious was a planned move to Uganda.

Even Jews active in temple are a lot more secularised and atheistic than you might think. It's very common that Jews are active in temple as well as atheists. It's not a conflict in Judaism. Judaism has no thought-policing. It's only your actions that count.

 

[untermensche]

Both the Israeli's and Palestinians are good decent people who only want to raise their children in peace.

Both are led by extreme radicals that resort to violence at the drop of a hat.

This is why the problem should have been removed from the leadership of both sides and resolved in the UN a long time ago. The US has single handedly prevented the UN from even trying to address the issue.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Both the Israeli's and Palestinians are good decent people who only want to raise their children in peace.

Both are led by extreme radicals that resort to violence at the drop of a hat.

This is why the problem should have been removed from the leadership of both sides and resolved in the UN a long time ago. The US has single handedly prevented the UN from even trying to address the issue.

Blaming it on the leadership is too easy. Israel is a very well functioning democracy. The Palestinians also have a democracy, albeit not as well functioning. I think we have to accept that what is happening is the will of the people. Or they wouldn't vote for them.

I think it's more down to complexity, in the mathematical sense. It's a hard conflict to solve. Most people understand their own problems very well. Other people's problems, not-so-much. They simplify and play down problems. Exaggerate their own. This is very human and quite normal. No matter what compromise is reached a lot of people on both sides will be dissatisfied. And very many on both sides have unrealistic demands and expectations.

From the Palestinian voting we know that about half of the Palestinian voters think it's realistic to expel all Jews from Israel and set up a Islamic Caliphate in it's place. This is a very simple interpretation of the 2006 Palestinian voting. That is extreme. And also silly. And nothing you can blame on the Palestinian leadership. These were actual votes by ordinary Palestinians. Saying that the average Israeli voter was alarmed by this is an understatement. A strong reaction would be expected... and reasonable. Ie, not extreme.

Also... the UN is not a neutral institution. The security council often acts as a proxy arena for super powers. It's better than a lot of other institutions. But it's not perfect. Giving it over to the UN is not likely to solve much. It's just moving the problem somewhere else. And the result can get very random and bizarre. Pretty much anything the UN does ends up being half-assed and making nobody happy.