Both the Israelis and the Palestinians suck

[Unbeatable]

Israel and Palestine are nations made up of lots of individual human beings, not homogeneous swarms. If you anthropomorphize each nation and treat its actions as reflections of some sort of coherent aggregate personality, then what you end up with is just two nations acting in ruthless pursuit of their own self interest, the same way all nations on the planet ever seem to do. Nations, like corporations, usually turn out to be contemptible in some manner or another if I pay enough attention to their behavior.

The nice thing about democracy is that the government actually represent the will of the people. We do know what Israelis, on average, think.

I couldn't give less of a fuck what people think "on average". An average is just a statistical abstraction. If you insist on speaking about the Israelis and Palestinians only on the group/statistical abstraction level, you can go talk to somebody else. Democracy is just a word. In every system, the government only really represents the will of the particular people who have the most resources and determination(but mostly resources; willpower isn't fucking magic, and it can be crushed or subverted) with which to influence the government, and it's not even really a direct representation. The individual human beings who make up governments still have to make all sorts of compromises. In that region, the particular people who want peace apparently don't have enough resources to keep the others from fucking it up again and again.

So I'm afraid we can't really pass the buck on this one.

I certainly can. The will of the people isn't some sort of trump card. The buck doesn't stop there. The will of a person comes from somewhere. It doesn't pop into existence out of the ether. It is 100% a product of causal forces. Circumstantial variables, which if altered would have produced a different will. As I said, had I been born Israeli or Palestinian, there's no telling what I would have ended up believing about this whole mess, simply as a function of my experiences.

In what way do any of the sides, (Israel and Palestine) have anything to gain from continuing this ridiculous conflict? It doesn't look like selfish self-interest to me. To me it looks more like belligerent small-mindedness.

To me, belligerent small-mindedness looks like a more specific form of selfish self-interest. One of the irrational forms, of course. But selfish self-interest doesn't have to be rational. In fact, behaviors referred to as "selfish" in layspeak rarely are rational from a long term perspective. In the long term, rational self interest promotes cooperation, not cycles of revenge and uncompromising perpetual war. But Israel and Palestine aren't rational. A person in crisis mode, acting out of fear and anger can nonetheless be characterized as selfish. The same can be said for a nation, if you're going to anthropomorphize it. It's not about what they have to gain; it's about what they perceive that they have to gain by continuing, or what they perceive that they have to lose by compromising.

 

[Togo]

They seem to be acting rationally to me.

Israel doesn't want peace with Palestine, because it would have to give up all the land it's stealing in return for a promise from it's victim not to retaliate, which probably isn't worth very much. That's not a very sensible idea.
Palestine doesn't want peace with Israel, because it would have to give up forever the idea of it's own state, secure in it's own borders, and run by it's own citizens, in favour of continuous dominance by the very people who are killing them now. That's not a very sensible idea either.

In the long run, Palestine has every prospect of crushing Israel entirely. Not militarily, of course, but the idea that Israel can keep the Palestinians under thumb forever is kinda stupid. There are too many of them, they have way more friends.
In long run, Israel by contrast has a real dilemma. They are presently Democratic, Jewish, and in possession of most of the land they want. In the future they'll have to give up one or more of those three. They can't both rule over the Palestinians as an underclass and keep their democratic values. They can't incorporate the Palestinians into a single state of Israel as full voting citizens without the more numerous Palestinians changing the country. And they can't allow the formation of the state of Palestine without giving up the land. Their only hope is ethnic cleansing - treating the Palestinians so badly they'll 'voluntarily' leave the area.

 

[Unbeatable]

Right, you've reminded me of something I was thinking that I lost track of-- the ruthless part of "ruthless pursuit of their own self-interest" has a lot to do with the anthropomorphized entities of Israel and Palestine being willing to sacrifice countless of their own citizens for the sake of the state.

 

[font]

Israel uses Jewish symbols exclusively for instance. It makes no effort at all to uphold Israel as a religiously neutral state.

You constantly confuse nationality and religion. Do you actually understand what you are speaking about?

In it's founding laws it's many times referred to as a Jewish state.

Jewish and democratic state. Just try be a little bit correct.

"The Law of Return" is not extended to Muslims.

Muslims have plenty countries to live. Jews have only one.

it is for discussion.

No, it isn't. It is a fact. Just try to live with it.

And as long as Israelis keep pretending...

As long as you keep repeating this BS you more and more show signs of common anti-semitic syndrome. You just cannot understand very simple fact: today jews decide their fate.Yes, as long as 2000 years jews were fully dependent from other people. But now it is over. Israel is not and will not be like Europe where jews today are afraid exposing their national identity. Just forget about it.

 

[font]

What is ignorance is the idea that Israel is defending itself.

Israel is defending it's brutal oppression and theft that has lasted 50 years.

It wants to oppress people and steal from them and pay no price. That isn't self defense.

I'm aware there are a lot of people who are very upset by the fact that today jews can defend themself. For you it is very hard to accept that but you have to live with it.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I'm aware there are a lot of people who are very upset by the fact that today jews can defend themself. For you it is very hard to accept that but you have to live with it.

WTF, dude?

Implying anti-semitism because someone disagrees with what the Israeli government is doing is just lame.

 

[4321lynx]

I'm aware there are a lot of people who are very upset by the fact that today jews can defend themself. For you it is very hard to accept that but you have to live with it.

WTF, dude?

Implying anti-semitism because someone disagrees with what the Israeli government is doing is just lame.

But often met with. Typical, in fact.


And bear in mind that: "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

 

[font]

What is ignorance is the idea that Israel is defending itself.

Israel is defending it's brutal oppression and theft that has lasted 50 years.

It wants to oppress people and steal from them and pay no price. That isn't self defense.

I'm aware there are a lot of people who are very upset by the fact that today jews can defend themself. For you it is very hard to accept that but you have to live with it.

WTF, dude?

Implying anti-semitism because someone disagrees with what the Israeli government is doing is just lame.

"ignorance" "brutal oppression" "theft" "It wants to oppress people and steal" is nothing to do with criticism. It's not about "the Israeli government", it's about state of Israel and of course about its people. It's not expression of disagreement but expression of hatred.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I'm aware there are a lot of people who are very upset by the fact that today jews can defend themself. For you it is very hard to accept that but you have to live with it.

WTF, dude?

Implying anti-semitism because someone disagrees with what the Israeli government is doing is just lame.

Hey, people implied I was an anti-semite even though I'm Jewish (and I wasn't even taking a side in the god damned conflict in the first place) but they didn't know that so I guess we're cool now. Probably not though.

 

[tupac chopra]

It looks to me like they deserve each other.

I had dinner two nights ago with a friend of mine of Palestinian descent. In 1948 her grandfathers village was invaded by Israelis. the village defended itself as best it could and the Israelis suffered some casualties. The Israelis returned and lined up 75 men from the village and shot them.

How would you feel if someone invaded where you lived and started killing people?

Last night there was a meeting in the town I live in about Palestine. people want to organise some fund raising for the poor people there. My friend was there and another Palestinian man. His grandfather fought on the side of the British in World war 2 and he was captured and taken to Germany as a prisoner of war.
After the war in much the same way the same thing happen to his village.

No one deserves to have happen to them what happened to the Palestinians

 

[untermensche]

What is ignorance is the idea that Israel is defending itself.

Israel is defending it's brutal oppression and theft that has lasted 50 years.

It wants to oppress people and steal from them and pay no price. That isn't self defense.

I'm aware there are a lot of people who are very upset by the fact that today jews can defend themself. For you it is very hard to accept that but you have to live with it.

I'm happy that some Jews can defend themselves.

But Israel isn't defending itself here.

It's defending it's quarantine and blockade and economic strangulation policies. And it is defending it's settlement policy.

That is what it cares more about than defense of it's people.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It looks to me like they deserve each other.

I had dinner two nights ago with a friend of mine of Palestinian descent. In 1948 her grandfathers village was invaded by Israelis. the village defended itself as best it could and the Israelis suffered some casualties. The Israelis returned and lined up 75 men from the village and shot them.

And why isn't something like that all over the history books?

And note that you're proving they were combatants--civilians would have no reason to defend themselves as they wouldn't have been under threat.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

If foreigners come into your city and tell you to leave your house, because its theirs now, because they say so, and you say you don't want to leave, does that make you a combatant and fair game for extermination?

 

[Arctish]

I had dinner two nights ago with a friend of mine of Palestinian descent. In 1948 her grandfathers village was invaded by Israelis. the village defended itself as best it could and the Israelis suffered some casualties. The Israelis returned and lined up 75 men from the village and shot them.

And why isn't something like that all over the history books?

And note that you're proving they were combatants--civilians would have no reason to defend themselves as they wouldn't have been under threat.

What in the world are you talking about? You do realize in those days the guys attacking Palestinian villages were members of the Irgun, Lehi, and Haganah, right? You remember that the Irgun and Lehi were terrorists, and their joining the quasi-terrorist Haganah to attack villages was terrorism, right?

Civilians have every right to defend themselves when terrorists attack, and the fact those same attackers later returned and murdered 75 men in cold blood proves the civilians were right to fear them.

ETA: Here's the thing that really bothers me about these discussions.

If the events tupac chopra described had happened to Jews there would be no disagreement between us that is was an atrocity. There would be no disagreement between us that the people who did it were terrorists and murderers. But since it was done by Zionists and the victim were Palestinians you trot out this inane argument that the villagers were the guilty party because they fought their attackers.

It's like that argument you made in another thread about the Gazans being responsible for the deaths of their kids because of the choices they made. You are completely unable to apply your own reasoning to the parents of the murdered yeshiva students. In every argument you make the racial/religious affiliation of the victim is the deciding factor in whether whether or not what happened to them was bad. You aren't judging the morality or immorality of an action isn't based on the action itself; you look to see who is doing it to whom, and siding with the Israelis and Zionists no matter what they've done.

 

[font]

I'm happy that some Jews can defend themselves.

The only place where "some jews" can defend themselves is Israel. And you are very unhappy with it. Not only you of course. Multiple repeating of your BS aka "disagreement" doesn't make it more sensible.

 

[Togo]

I'm happy that some Jews can defend themselves.

The only place where "some jews" can defend themselves is Israel. And you are very unhappy with it. Not only you of course. Multiple repeating of your BS aka "disagreement" doesn't make it more sensible.

Merely defending themselves in not enough, of course. How do you see this conflict ending?

 

[font]

Merely defending themselves in not enough, of course. How do you see this conflict ending?

I don't see any chances for any solution in the foreseeable future.

 

[fromderinside]

As long as land can be owned and people can claim rights to it such problems will always remain.

 

[Togo]

Merely defending themselves in not enough, of course. How do you see this conflict ending?

I don't see any chances for the solution in the foreseeable future.

So why should either Israel or Gaza stop fighting then? What's in it for them?

 

[fromderinside]

I don't see any chances for the solution in the foreseeable future.

So why should either Israel or Gaza stop fighting then? What's in it for them?

Uh, more people would be living?