Both the Israelis and the Palestinians suck

[Loren Pechtel]

Both the Israeli's and Palestinians are good decent people who only want to raise their children in peace.

Both are led by extreme radicals that resort to violence at the drop of a hat.

This is why the problem should have been removed from the leadership of both sides and resolved in the UN a long time ago. The US has single handedly prevented the UN from even trying to address the issue.

The majority of the Gazans are more interested in destroying Israel than in peace.

 

[untermensche]

Both the Israeli's and Palestinians are good decent people who only want to raise their children in peace.

Both are led by extreme radicals that resort to violence at the drop of a hat.

This is why the problem should have been removed from the leadership of both sides and resolved in the UN a long time ago. The US has single handedly prevented the UN from even trying to address the issue.

The majority of the Gazans are more interested in destroying Israel than in peace.

Probably at this moment you're right.

And I can understand their hatred. But when Israel isn't actively killing their children all they want is to raise them in peace.

Ultimately there is no difference between the majority of Israeli's and the majority of Palestinians. They are both human. One is not inherently superior to the other.

All the trouble comes from a small minority of radicals on both sides.

 

[font]

Am I the only one who thinks both sides are fucking idiots who deserve to die?

Israel is by definition NOT a Jewish state.

I hope you will not upset too much by the fact that "fucking idiots" do not care about your "definition".

About half the population is Muslim.

Even "fucking idiots" are capable to read next simple text from wiki:
"Making up 16% of the population, Muslims constitute Israel's largest religious minority"

Maintaining Israel as a Jewish state is like

maintaining Sweden as a swedish state.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The majority of the Gazans are more interested in destroying Israel than in peace.

Probably at this moment you're right.

And I can understand their hatred. But when Israel isn't actively killing their children all they want is to raise them in peace.

Ultimately there is no difference between the majority of Israeli's and the majority of Palestinians. They are both human. One is not inherently superior to the other.

All the trouble comes from a small minority of radicals on both sides.

The polls are conducted in peacetime.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Israel is by definition NOT a Jewish state.

I hope you will not upset too much by the fact that "fucking idiots" do not care about your "definition".

About half the population is Muslim.

Even "fucking idiots" are capable to read next simple text from wiki:
"Making up 16% of the population, Muslims constitute Israel's largest religious minority"

It depends how that is calculated. I don't think you can separate the Palestinian territories from Gaza. They have an integrated economy.

Maintaining Israel as a Jewish state is like

maintaining Sweden as a swedish state.

Excellent example. Swedishness is fucking bullshit. It's a meaningless term. But then again... I'm cosmopolitan. I think all nationalism or patriotism is bullshit. Just arbitrary delimiters and seeing cultural differences where there are none.

 

[Jayjay]

Probably at this moment you're right.

And I can understand their hatred. But when Israel isn't actively killing their children all they want is to raise them in peace.

Ultimately there is no difference between the majority of Israeli's and the majority of Palestinians. They are both human. One is not inherently superior to the other.

All the trouble comes from a small minority of radicals on both sides.

The polls are conducted in peacetime.

The results of polls like that depend very much on the wording, so without knowing what poll you are referring to exactly, your statement is meaningless. Somehow I doubt there was actually a question that asked literally whether they prefer peace over destroying Israel.

 

[untermensche]

Probably at this moment you're right.

And I can understand their hatred. But when Israel isn't actively killing their children all they want is to raise them in peace.

Ultimately there is no difference between the majority of Israeli's and the majority of Palestinians. They are both human. One is not inherently superior to the other.

All the trouble comes from a small minority of radicals on both sides.

The polls are conducted in peacetime.

The polls are never conducted at a time when Israel is not greatly infringing on the rights of people in Gaza.

Illegally preventing people from trade on the water and in the air tends to create enemies.

 

[font]

It depends how that is calculated. I don't think you can separate the Palestinian territories from Gaza. They have an integrated economy.

Of course it depends. You could calculate the population of Sweden by including population of Finland if you want.

Excellent example. Swedishness is fucking bullshit. It's a meaningless term. But then again... I'm cosmopolitan. I think all nationalism or patriotism is bullshit. Just arbitrary delimiters and seeing cultural differences where there are none.

OK. If swedish people is ready to give up its national identity (and I doubt it is) so it is its choice. Anyway jews done their own choice and created a jewish state.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Of course it depends. You could calculate the population of Sweden by including population of Finland if you want.

Which would be totally reasonable considering Finland has culturally been part of Sweden for more than a thousand years. Ever since recognisable governments started appearing we've been joined at the hip. Only to get squandered to Russia in an idiotic military campaign in 1809.

Excellent example. Swedishness is fucking bullshit. It's a meaningless term. But then again... I'm cosmopolitan. I think all nationalism or patriotism is bullshit. Just arbitrary delimiters and seeing cultural differences where there are none.

OK. If swedish people is ready to give up its national identity (and I doubt it is) so it is its choice. Anyway jews done their own choice and created a jewish state.

Sweden's national identity is 100% contrived. There's a slow gradual cultural and linguistic shift right across Europe (north to south, or east to west). You can literally put the borders between European countries anywhere. It'll make just as much/little sense where ever you stick them. This thing with that there's a main language for each nation state is an extremely new development. It was imposed from above as the rise of industrialisation all in the name of literacy and standardisation. And now when we frown on cultural limitations imposed from above (like language) this development will irreversibly lead to greater diversification again. For example, at the time of the French revolution France had about 400 distinct and living languages. About 12% of French nationals could speak French.

And so is Israeli culture. The Levant is a geographically a crossroads between regions. It has always been and will always be a confusing mishmash of cultures, sometimes in conflict, sometimes peacefully co-existing. Historically the region has been the doormat for any empire builder no matter where they've planned to expand. Simple due to it's geographic location. Each empire has put their cultural mark on it, like a painter too lazy to strip away the old paint. Just slapping on another layer. Jews now taking out their circumcised Jew penises and slapping it in the face of everybody else and telling them that this is now Jew-country... is not likely to get well received. Which it hasn't been.

It's also in conflict with the general trend in the world, to go toward increased globalisation and away from isolation. Cultural openness is the way to succeed in life. It's just the smart thing to do.

And finally... church and state separation. If Israel would do that... most problems would just magically go away over night. Nobody would have to give up anything. Everybody wins.

edit: I would like to point out that I make a difference between Israeli and Jewish culture. I'm very well aware that there is a distinct Jewish culture and ethnicity. My ex-wife was Ashkenazi. I've spent enough time around Jews for this to become extremely clear. Every Jewish diaspora group has their own separate culture. Israeli culture is something else entirely. It's the mix of all these cultures, together with Arabs. It's not any single monolithic culture. It's largely an immigrant culture. A culture of mixed cultures. The shared Jewishness of Israelis is very much contrived. Israelis want it to be true, so they pretend it's true. Very much like Swedishness. Even if Sweden is about a thousand times more culturally homogeneous than Israel will ever be.

Shalom

 

[font]

Jews now taking out their circumcised Jew penises and slapping it in the face of everybody else and telling them that this is now Jew-country... is not likely to get well received. Which it hasn't been.

Why jews should be bother about somebody who is upset by existence of jewish state?

It's also in conflict with the general trend in the world, to go toward increased globalisation and away from isolation. Cultural openness is the way to succeed in life. It's just the smart thing to do.

Israel is a democratic state. So everyone could try to convince israelis in whatever issue he wants. But violence, boycotts and political discrimination as arguments are not accepted.

And finally... church and state separation. If Israel would do that... most problems would just magically go away over night. Nobody would have to give up anything. Everybody wins.

The only connection between church and state is that christians who want to register their marriage or divorce should present appropriate certificate from church authority. The same is true for jews, muslims etc. It should be very sophisticated explanation on how this procedure prevents resolving most of problems.

Every Jewish diaspora group has their own separate culture. Israeli culture is something else entirely. It's the mix of all these cultures, together with Arabs. It's not any single monolithic culture. It's largely an immigrant culture. A culture of mixed cultures.

That's right.

The shared Jewishness of Israelis is very much contrived. Israelis want it to be true, so they pretend it's true.

That's not right.
The main component which unite all jewish groups, including israeli jews, into the jewish people is religious traditions.

 

[untermensche]

Why jews should be bother about somebody who is upset by existence of jewish state?

Because religion is primitive ignorance and should not be the basis for modern nations.

People oppose a Jewish state as much as they oppose Muslim states, or Christian states.

There should be a solid wall between the state and all religion. And all religions should be treated equally by the state.

This is how you maximize freedom. You don't get the government taking sides in religious matters.

Israel is a democratic state. So everyone could try to convince israelis in whatever issue he wants. But violence, boycotts and political discrimination as arguments are not accepted.

Israel is a capitalist state.

The way to make it behave like the rest of the civilized world is through economic means. That is so violence doesn't have to be used.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Why jews should be bother about somebody who is upset by existence of jewish state?

Well... there has always been a lot of Muslims living there. It's always been a very religiously eclectic area. So it's silly to give one religion precedence over the others.

This is the religious part of Jewishness. Rather than the ethnic Jewishness. Ethnically it's a mix.

It's also in conflict with the general trend in the world, to go toward increased globalisation and away from isolation. Cultural openness is the way to succeed in life. It's just the smart thing to do.

Israel is a democratic state. So everyone could try to convince israelis in whatever issue he wants. But violence, boycotts and political discrimination as arguments are not accepted.

This I agree with. And is a point to Israel in the Israel/Palestine conflict.

And finally... church and state separation. If Israel would do that... most problems would just magically go away over night. Nobody would have to give up anything. Everybody wins.

The only connection between church and state is that christians who want to register their marriage or divorce should present appropriate certificate from church authority. The same is true for jews, muslims etc. It should be very sophisticated explanation on how this procedure prevents resolving most of problems.

Exactly!!! So why insist on a Davids star on the Israeli flag? Why not just remove it? Or why not have all the three Abrahamic religious symbols on the flag. It would solve so much shit. The Davids star on the Jewish flag is really to continually slap the Israeli Muslim Arabs in the face (with circumcised Jewish penises). It's unnecessary. It's inflammatory for no reason or added benefit.

The shared Jewishness of Israelis is very much contrived. Israelis want it to be true, so they pretend it's true.

That's not right.
The main component which unite all jewish groups, including israeli jews, into the jewish people is religious traditions.

All I've got is my ex-wife's version. She was not impressed. She lived in Jerusalem. She just thought the Orthodox Jews were annoying and frankly bonkers. Everybody else thought they were cunts and did their best to distance themselves. Everybody hated the settlers. She'd grown up in the ghetto of Budapest and belonged to that temple. When she got to Israel she didn't like how religious Jewishness was forced upon new immigrants. Getting involved in Jewish religious groups gave instant access to all manner of opportunities. Most of which were financed by American Jewish money, in order to promote Jewish religious traditions. She thought it was contrived. They had to pretend to hold traditions they hadn't in Hungary just to have access to society. Jobs for instance.

According to her it was IDF and the perceived enemy from without that served to create more of a national Israeliness than any perceived Jewishness.

To be fair, their group of Hungarian Jews moved to Israel because Hungary was economically really shit. And anti-Semitism. It's been on a steady rise since the fall of communism. They were all extremely atheistic and secular. They didn't really move to something as much as away from something. They just went to temple in Budapest because that's what Jews in Budapest did. They didn't really care about it. The Budapest temple offered a lot of things apart from just services. For instance, the Budapest temple was the channel through which they all made it to Israel. It was also through temple that Budapest Jews found schools and higher education.

After leaving Israel and moving to Sweden, she did not contact the Jewish community here. They have nothing to offer she wants. I know plenty of Swedish Jews and none of them are active in the Stockholm temple. None of them give a rats ass about Jewish tradition. They've all had secular marriages. Even the most rabidly pro-Israeli Jew I know, is a firm atheist and couldn't care less about any Jewish traditions. He thinks all religion and religious traditions is lunacy.

 

[font]

Because religion is primitive ignorance and should not be the basis for modern nations.

People oppose a Jewish state as much as they oppose Muslim states, or Christian states.

Jewish state doesn't mean the state of judaism. You just not in the subject. Not only you however.

Israel is a capitalist state.

The way to make it behave like the rest of the civilized world is through economic means. That is so violence doesn't have to be used.

So you suppose that stupid and ignorant (according to you) jews will agree to stop defending themselves for money? Very interesting mental case.

 

[font]

So it's silly to give one religion precedence over the others.

Not only silly but also amoral. And this is why Israel doesn't do it.

Exactly!!! So why insist on a Davids star on the Israeli flag? Why not just remove it? Or why not have all the three Abrahamic religious symbols on the flag. It would solve so much shit. The Davids star on the Jewish flag is really to continually slap the Israeli Muslim Arabs in the face (with circumcised Jewish penises). It's unnecessary. It's inflammatory for no reason or added benefit.

So you think that removing David star from the israeli flag resolves the conflict? OK, I got it. What did you say about idiots?
BTW muslims also do circumcision. Does it mean that you prefer circumcised islamic penises to those circumcised jewish penises?

All I've got is my ex-wife's version. She was not impressed. She lived in Jerusalem. She just thought the Orthodox Jews were annoying and frankly bonkers. Everybody else thought they were cunts and did their best to distance themselves. Everybody hated the settlers. She'd grown up in the ghetto of Budapest and belonged to that temple. When she got to Israel she didn't like how religious Jewishness was forced upon new immigrants. Getting involved in Jewish religious groups gave instant access to all manner of opportunities. Most of which were financed by American Jewish money, in order to promote Jewish religious traditions. She thought it was contrived. They had to pretend to hold traditions they hadn't in Hungary just to have access to society. Jobs for instance.

OK, let's put it in order.
Orthodox jews are problematic part of the israeli society. Part of them don't recognize the state of Israel, doesn't serve in the army etc.
Yes, part of jewish immigrants have no idea about jewish traditions. In fact from orthodoxal point of view many of them are even not jews. Yes, some of immigrants came to Israel for economic reasons. But Israel is the country of the law. There is the Law of Return and it is applied. This law is not fully compliant with orthodoxical definition of jews and this is a known fact.
The wrong in your post is that getting involved in Jewish religious groups gave instant access to all manner of opportunities. Orthodox jews are less educated and have no position in real israeli economy. Most of these people have just little family businesses.
Most of immigrants from Europe, including those from former USSR, are usually well educated and don't need such perspective as poor little business. Plenty of them got good positions. The minister of forign affairs Lieberman is not only example. There are no orthodox jews in current government.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Not only silly but also amoral. And this is why Israel doesn't do it.

Well... that's a pretty crazy opinion IMHO. I think you're going to have to explain yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_state

Exactly!!! So why insist on a Davids star on the Israeli flag? Why not just remove it? Or why not have all the three Abrahamic religious symbols on the flag. It would solve so much shit. The Davids star on the Jewish flag is really to continually slap the Israeli Muslim Arabs in the face (with circumcised Jewish penises). It's unnecessary. It's inflammatory for no reason or added benefit.

So you think that removing David star from the israeli flag resolves the conflict? OK, I got it. What did you say about idiots?
BTW muslims also do circumcision. Does it mean that you prefer circumcised islamic penises to those circumcised jewish penises?

As long as Israeli Jews insist on identifying Israel as a Jewish state it's pure provocation. If Israeli Jews would stop doing that then this conflict could, hypothetically, be resolved.

If this would be a bar-fight it'd be something like this. A big guy and a scrawny guy are arguing about who has the right to sit in a chair. The big guy is sitting in the chair and wonders what all the fuss is about. "Hey, I'm just sitting here minding my own business". He has what he wants to he doesn't see the point to continue the conversation. The discussion is going nowhere. The scrawny guy keeps throwing punches to the big guys annoyance. Now and again the big guy smacks the scrawny guy in the face. But nothing is resolved. Each time the scrawny guy just gets angrier and angrier and makes crazier and crazier demands.

The scrawny guy won't start calming down until the big guy acknowledges that he might have a point and they have a shared responsibility to resolve the conflict.

By labelling Israel as a Jewish state it's Jews are looking for trouble. It's fucked up to act all surprised and indignant when it pisses off the Palestinians. It's hard to side with Israel in a situation like that. Even if the Palestinians and Hammas are fucked up and bizarrely hyperbolic in their demands. In any conflict. The weaker side is typically always the most extreme.

All I've got is my ex-wife's version. She was not impressed. She lived in Jerusalem. She just thought the Orthodox Jews were annoying and frankly bonkers. Everybody else thought they were cunts and did their best to distance themselves. Everybody hated the settlers. She'd grown up in the ghetto of Budapest and belonged to that temple. When she got to Israel she didn't like how religious Jewishness was forced upon new immigrants. Getting involved in Jewish religious groups gave instant access to all manner of opportunities. Most of which were financed by American Jewish money, in order to promote Jewish religious traditions. She thought it was contrived. They had to pretend to hold traditions they hadn't in Hungary just to have access to society. Jobs for instance.

OK, let's put it in order.
Orthodox jews are problematic part of the israeli society. Part of them don't recognize the state of Israel, doesn't serve in the army etc.
Yes, part of jewish immigrants have no idea about jewish traditions. In fact from orthodoxal point of view many of them are even not jews. Yes, some of immigrants came to Israel for economic reasons. But Israel is the country of the law. There is the Law of Return and it is applied. This law is not fully compliant with orthodoxical definition of jews and this is a known fact.
The wrong in your post is that getting involved in Jewish religious groups gave instant access to all manner of opportunities. Orthodox jews are less educated and have no position in real israeli economy. Most of these people have just little family businesses.
Most of immigrants from Europe, including those from former USSR, are usually well educated and don't need such perspective as poor little business. Plenty of them got good positions. The minister of forign affairs Lieberman is not only example. There are no orthodox jews in current government.

Like I said. This is my ex-wives version. Also, she didn't say she had to get involved in Orthodox Jewish organisations to get access to stuff. She was just talking about regular religious stuff. She described it as "theistic brainwashing". Of a type she was not accustomed to from her temple in Budapest. There were requirements on being active in various study groups or being active in temple activities. She was a student, btw, so that may play into her experiences. They were a large close-knit group of Hungarian Jews of similar ages (around 20) who all belonged to the temple of Budapest. So she had experiences from a number of Hungarians in a similar situation to draw from. They were all pretty liberal. My ex-wife both had Arab and Jewish boyfriends during this period.

 

[font]

Well... that's a pretty crazy opinion IMHO. I think you're going to have to explain yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_state

What you are stunning so much? That it is amoral to suppress other religion? Or for you it is so unexpectedly that in Israel there is no precedence of one religion over another? I think it is you who should explain your strange comment.

As long as Israeli Jews insist on identifying Israel as a Jewish state it's pure provocation. If Israeli Jews would stop doing that then this conflict could, hypothetically, be resolved.

Let's say it a little bit different: if arabs recognize Israel as a jewish state the conflict could be resolved.
Israel was created by UN as a jewish state and (which is more important) it is a jewish state. It's not for discussion.

 

[DrZoidberg]

What you are stunning so much? That it is amoral to suppress other religion? Or for you it is so unexpectedly that in Israel there is no precedence of one religion over another? I think it is you who should explain your strange comment.

Israel uses Jewish symbols exclusively for instance. It makes no effort at all to uphold Israel as a religiously neutral state. In it's founding laws it's many times referred to as a Jewish state. "The Law of Return" is not extended to Muslims. The fact that Israel has religious freedom and it's government doesn't discriminate based on religion is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about it's identity as exclusively Jewish.

As long as Israeli Jews insist on identifying Israel as a Jewish state it's pure provocation. If Israeli Jews would stop doing that then this conflict could, hypothetically, be resolved.

Let's say it a little bit different: if arabs recognize Israel as a jewish state the conflict could be resolved.
Israel was created by UN as a jewish state and (which is more important) it is a jewish state. It's not for discussion.

As if it was the UN's to give away?!? Ehm... it is for discussion. That's what the conflict is about. And as long as Israelis keep pretending that it's not up for discussion you're going to get rockets and suicide bombs on your ass. And IMHO you're asking for it. It's to provoke a fight. And if you provoke a fight you're not really into a position to complain when you get it. That was the opinion of my ex-wife and why she left Israel for Sweden. A Jewish friend's father left Israel in the 70'ies for similar reasons. A quote for him is "the Israeli/Palestine conflict turn both sides into animals. I wanted no part in it".

My more cynical friends have expressed that they think that neither Israel nor the Palestinians really want to resolve the conflict. And that's why they're so adamant about not budging an inch. As the theory goes, both Israelis (not Jews) and Palestinians now get their identity from the continued conflict, (rather than from their ethnic or religious identity) and without it they wouldn't have an identity as either Israeli or Palestinian. Ethnic identity as a conflict-identity. That would indeed make this conflict unsolvable. If true it would explain why both of the sides behave so counter-productively to peace. Both sides are certainly doing all they can to keep it alive.

 

[untermensche]

Jewish state doesn't mean the state of judaism. You just not in the subject. Not only you however.

Israel is a capitalist state.

The way to make it behave like the rest of the civilized world is through economic means. That is so violence doesn't have to be used.

So you suppose that stupid and ignorant (according to you) jews will agree to stop defending themselves for money? Very interesting mental case.

What is ignorance is the idea that Israel is defending itself.

Israel is defending it's brutal oppression and theft that has lasted 50 years.

It wants to oppress people and steal from them and pay no price. That isn't self defense.

 

[Unbeatable]

Am I the only one who thinks both sides are fucking idiots who deserve to die?

Israel and Palestine are nations made up of lots of individual human beings, not homogeneous swarms. If you anthropomorphize each nation and treat its actions as reflections of some sort of coherent aggregate personality, then what you end up with is just two nations acting in ruthless pursuit of their own self interest, the same way all nations on the planet ever seem to do. Nations, like corporations, usually turn out to be contemptible in some manner or another if I pay enough attention to their behavior.

I wouldn't say that either "deserve" to die. That sounds too much like condemnation from my POV, and I don't condemn them. There are no villains in this conflict, to me. However, I am beyond the point of caring whether either side survives, and have long since passed the point where I'm sick of the whole conflict and prone to wishing they'd both die simply because I see no way to untie the fucking knot apart from cutting it. In a way, I pity them.

Although my shallow emotional reaction when reading a given news story may be to side with which ever side appears to be acting in self defense according to the framing of the story, when I actually think about the conflict, it's apparent to me that while various individual human beings in both groups may want peace, the international policies of each nation are dictated largely by those members of each group who do not want peace (or who do not want peace enough to compromise). It's easy for me to dismiss the latter from an outsider's perspective, but it's hard to see exactly what I would do differently in their place, without the benefit of the emotional detachment that comes from having no personal stake in the situation. If I had been born there, there's no telling what my upbringing and experiences would have caused me to eventually believe.

I try to avoid engaging in the fundamental attribution error. Both sides are certainly behaving idiotically, but is their idiocy a permanent defect of character or a suboptimally rational reaction to the circumstances with which they're faced? The more I think about it, it's almost certainly the latter. The question of whether they're idiots is actually a question of value in disguise-- it takes different levels of effort to persuade different people to pursue peace; from a human perspective, those whom it is the most difficult to persuade would end up being dismissed as not worth the effort, as lost causes. If the omnipotent deities the people of this region believed in were actually real, they would have access to infinite effort with which to persuade even the most rigid ideologues on either side to abandon their perpetual war. I suspect, however, that for many in the region, this would require many many years of psychotherapy.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Am I the only one who thinks both sides are fucking idiots who deserve to die?

Israel and Palestine are nations made up of lots of individual human beings, not homogeneous swarms. If you anthropomorphize each nation and treat its actions as reflections of some sort of coherent aggregate personality, then what you end up with is just two nations acting in ruthless pursuit of their own self interest, the same way all nations on the planet ever seem to do. Nations, like corporations, usually turn out to be contemptible in some manner or another if I pay enough attention to their behavior.

The nice thing about democracy is that the government actually represent the will of the people. We do know what Israelis, on average, think. So I'm afraid we can't really pass the buck on this one.

In what way do any of the sides, (Israel and Palestine) have anything to gain from continuing this ridiculous conflict? It doesn't look like selfish self-interest to me. To me it looks more like belligerent small-mindedness.