Buddhism vs Stoicism

[rousseau]

I blinked recently and realized I'd been studying Buddhism off and on since 2019. It's history, it's various schools, and a thorough look at Zen from a variety of sources. In that time I've also looked a little at Stoicism.

It's difficult to summarize Buddhism in a few sentences, but after study of such depth I feel like I really and truly get it. However, unexpectedly, one of my final thoughts about Buddhism is that it's a bit of a fantasy. Yes there is a lot of wisdom and insight in it, but I'm now of the view that transcending desire is basically wishful thinking. There is no way around it - our desires are real and important for living the life we want to live. Buddhism tries to circumvent this with a bit of a mind-trick, but it may be the case that those who unabashedly pursue their desires may be a little more intuitively perceptive.

This is where Buddhism would tack on the word 'excessive' pursuit of desire which is.. fair, and I think where we can label Buddhism as a box of wisdom, like every other religion.

Stoicism, on the other hand, talks about the importance of wisdom and reason, which directly approaches life as a problem that needs to be solved. Wisdom that can be gleaned from any particular religion or source. IOW, the Eastern approach provides wisdom that can help one live a good life in a Stoic context - a particular toolset and guide. Counterintuitively, the de-emphasis on the intellect and individual 'I' is great insight to own for the intellect.

So this is largely where I'm at now, religion as a pre-scientific toolset. Religions contain wisdom, but that wisdom ultimately needs to serve real material problems.

 

[Jarhyn]

Religions contain wisdom, but that wisdom ultimately needs to serve real material problems.

...And ultimately must be tied to understandings of real material mechanism to be validated

 

[Marvin Edwards]

... There is no way around it - our desires are real and important for living the life we want to live. Buddhism tries to circumvent this with a bit of a mind-trick, but it may be the case that those who unabashedly pursue their desires may be a little more intuitively perceptive. ...

Reminds me of what someone once said, "Zen is a gentle jiu-jitsu of the mind".

 

[rousseau]

Religions contain wisdom, but that wisdom ultimately needs to serve real material problems.

...And ultimately must be tied to understandings of real material mechanism to be validated

I agree. Some of my sentiments actually come from having recently read the bible, and realizing that some of it's wisdom is ubiquitous across every system of thought. How to live a good life, how to live in harmony among other people. That's essentially what they're driving at.

If you strip away the chaff and take the reasonable bits most of it can be validated.

 

[rousseau]

... There is no way around it - our desires are real and important for living the life we want to live. Buddhism tries to circumvent this with a bit of a mind-trick, but it may be the case that those who unabashedly pursue their desires may be a little more intuitively perceptive. ...

Reminds me of what someone once said, "Zen is a gentle jiu-jitsu of the mind".

That's a good way of putting it. If I was facing adverse conditions Zen would be a good framework for dealing with it, but I still wouldn't want to be facing those conditions.

 

[Jarhyn]

Religions contain wisdom, but that wisdom ultimately needs to serve real material problems.

...And ultimately must be tied to understandings of real material mechanism to be validated

I agree. Some of my sentiments actually come from having recently read the bible, and realizing that some of it's wisdom is ubiquitous across every system of thought. How to live a good life, how to live in harmony among other people. That's essentially what they're driving at.

If you strip away the chaff and take the reasonable bits most of it can be validated.

To be fair, there is a deeper wisdom buried in the Bible, hidden in plain sight when read in the original Hebrew, with a knowledge of Hebrew as a numerical language: as each character represents a number, people fell into the practice of numerology, which ended up a backhanded way to teach math, whose principles would lead to stronger understandings of game theory and laws which in some cases resulted in powerful learned skills.

The Bible, and more appropriately the Torah, wasn't just a repository of wisdom but a primitive math text for some as well.

It indeed also is a subtle way to teach goal oriented thinking and the process of systemic leveraging, when read in such an "esoteric" way, not that I do; I would far rather learn math from a a math text , thanks.

I'm not even a gnostic/esoteric Christian or Jew or an abrahamic of any kind really, but I have to admire the cleverness of that being done in the early bronze age or earlier.

Of course the conclusions derived from applying numerology are bunk, but even so , the operation being done -- taking a state (the original text) and a goal (what your unconscious wants to derive from the text) and developing a series of transforms which would logically transform the state towards the goal -- creates a powerful ability to operate systems of thought in general.

This is in many respects is exactly the logical exercise of taking an understanding of physics and a goal and deriving a path from the present to the goal state, and actioning upon it.

Of course there are better ways to teach goal oriented thinking and scientific investigation of physical law and real phenomena than to have someone learn it backasswards from doing pointless math on the passages of a holy book, but they didn't know that at the time.

 

[steve_bank]

Buddhism has supernatural elements, but I don't see it as a religion. It is more like a psychology and about mental health in today's terms.

According to the anecdotal stories Buddha was born to wealth and when seeing suffering outside the place asked himself what is the source of suffering.

He went walkabout. Fiirst he tried the extreme self deprivation practices of the ascetics. That did not make him happy. In the end he finds the Middle way. Avoid both extreme self denial and extreme excess. Today we call it a balanced life.

In the 70s I read Buddhist practcies were not about getting good at say mediation, it was about integrating into the world in a healthy way.

Buddhism like Christianity has a wacky extreme. Back in the 80s or 90s a monk's body was found buried in a box. He was seated wiht straps to keep him sitting up. They prepared for it over a period of time. They go into the box anare buried disappearing into a mantal reality.

Buddhism has extesive writings, sects, and interpretations like Christians.

1.
the endurance of pain or hardship without the display of feelings and without complaint.

2.
an ancient Greek school of philosophy founded at Athens by Zeno of Citium. The school taught that virtue, the highest good, is based on knowledge; the wise live in harmony with the divine Reason (also identified with Fate and Providence) that governs nature, and are indifferent to the vicissitudes of fortune and to pleasure and pain.

I don't see Buddhism as Stoic as in the British stiff upper lip or #2.

The ascetics of Buddha's time worked to desensitize to things. One practice still done today was sitting on a pile of feces until you get used to it. The Yoga Of The 5 Fires. In the summer with the sun overhead you sit in the middle of 4 fires. Happiness and enlightenment was found by not being perturbed by anything.

Buddha is said to have rejected it.

 

[steve_bank]

The 4 Noble Truths

By suffering I think it is meant life is inherently full of pain at times. Abve that us humans creqte our own suffering. If you crave for something you do not need and do not get it you suffer. So one of the practices is getting rid of cravings that are pulling you every which way.

Our modern culture is based on 24/7 instant gratification for any craving. I’d argue that is the root cause of modern social ills as in reported increase in mental illness especially with youth.

Karma is a mental-soical causality. One stray thought leads to another and the next thing you know you are mired in something and unhappy. As I understand it that is what mediation and concentration is about. Avoiding slippery slopes that you get carried away with.

I think the point is there is state of being happy and feeling good that is a natural state. The RCC might call that a state of grace. Drugs, alcohol, carving for excessive sex, food and so on brings you out of that state.

Four Noble Truths - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Full set – Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

The four truths are best known from their presentation in the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta text,[note 8] which contains two sets of the four truths,[49][50] while various other sets can be found in the Pāli Canon, a collection of scriptures in the Theravadan Buddhist tradition.[36] The full set, which is most commonly used in modern expositions,[note 8] contains grammatical errors, pointing to multiple sources for this set and translation problems within the ancient Buddhist community. Nevertheless, they were considered correct by the Pali tradition, which did not correct them.[54]

According to the Buddhist tradition, the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, "Setting the Wheel of Dhamma in Motion",[web 7] contains the first teachings that the Buddha gave after attaining full awakening, and liberation from rebirth. According to L. S. Cousins, many scholars are of the view that "this discourse was identified as the first sermon of the Buddha only at a later date,"[55] and according to professor of religion Carol S. Anderson[note 9] the four truths may originally not have been part of this sutta, but were later added in some versions.[56] Within this discourse, the four noble truths are given as follows ("bhikkus" is normally translated as "Buddhist monks"):

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering: birth is suffering, aging is suffering, illness is suffering, death is suffering; union with what is displeasing is suffering; separation from what is pleasing is suffering; not to get what one wants is suffering; in brief, the five aggregates subject to clinging are suffering.

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving [taṇhā, "thirst"] which leads to re-becoming, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there; that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for becoming, craving for disbecoming.

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the cessation of suffering: it is the remainderless fading away and cessation of that same craving, the giving up and relinquishing of it, freedom from it, non-reliance on it.

Now this, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering: it is this noble eightfold path; that is, right view, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.[web 10]

According to this sutra, with the complete comprehension of these four truths release from samsara, the cycle of rebirth, was attained:

Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'Unprovoked is my release. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.[web 7]

The comprehension of these four truths by his audience leads to the opening of the Dhamma Eye, that is, the attainment of right vision:

Whatever is subject to origination is subject to cessation.[web 7]

 

[rousseau]

Our modern culture is based on 24/7 instant gratification for any craving. I’d argue that is the root cause of modern social ills as in reported increase in mental illness especially with youth.

IMO, the issue we have today is that all of our problems are already solved. Solid, permanent housing. Food. Water. Sanitation. The whole nine yards.

Now people are desperate for the Dopamine hits they would otherwise be getting from actually moving their body and facing real challenges. Hence, drugs, alcohol etc.

 

[Bronzeage]

As a practicing Stoic, I can say the tenets of Stoicism can be summed up as "Be excellent to one another."

 

[steve_bank]

As a practicing Stoic, I can say the tenets of Stoicism can be summed up as "Be excellent to one another."

'Practice makes perfect'

 

[steve_bank]

Our modern culture is based on 24/7 instant gratification for any craving. I’d argue that is the root cause of modern social ills as in reported increase in mental illness especially with youth.

IMO, the issue we have today is that all of our problems are already solved. Solid, permanent housing. Food. Water. Sanitation. The whole nine yards.

Now people are desperate for the Dopamine hits they would otherwise be getting from actually moving their body and facing real challenges. Hence, drugs, alcohol etc.

I think it is more than that.

There is a general disregard for others.

Yesterday In Seattle one teen shot another in a high school.

A trial is starting for a teen girl who stabbed another teen girl to detah in a dispute.

I take a core Buddhist principle to be respect for all life from ants to humans. Over here Christianity like it or not used to moderate behavior, not any more.

Self destructive behavior has become normalized.

 

[rousseau]

1.
the endurance of pain or hardship without the display of feelings and without complaint.

2.
an ancient Greek school of philosophy founded at Athens by Zeno of Citium. The school taught that virtue, the highest good, is based on knowledge; the wise live in harmony with the divine Reason (also identified with Fate and Providence) that governs nature, and are indifferent to the vicissitudes of fortune and to pleasure and pain.

I don't see Buddhism as Stoic as in the British stiff upper lip or #2.

My argument was more along the lines of Stoic's valuing wisdom, and Buddhist thought being an example of wisdom that Stoic's could use / value, but not being Stoic itself.

Pretty much where I'm at is that reason and good decision making is key (Stoicism), but good decision making is only enlarged by using wisdom from as many sources as one can find.

 

[rousseau]

Our modern culture is based on 24/7 instant gratification for any craving. I’d argue that is the root cause of modern social ills as in reported increase in mental illness especially with youth.

IMO, the issue we have today is that all of our problems are already solved. Solid, permanent housing. Food. Water. Sanitation. The whole nine yards.

Now people are desperate for the Dopamine hits they would otherwise be getting from actually moving their body and facing real challenges. Hence, drugs, alcohol etc.

I think it is more than that.

There is a general disregard for others.

Yesterday In Seattle one teen shot another in a high school.

A trial is starting for a teen girl who stabbed another teen girl to detah in a dispute.

I take a core Buddhist principle to be respect for all life from ants to humans. Over here Christianity like it or not used to moderate behavior, not any more.

Self destructive behavior has become normalized.

Honestly, I think some of these assumptions could be checked. The world is more secular, and less violent now than it's ever been in history. During the medieval era the world was wholly religious and far more brutal.

IMO, a reading of history shows that a disregard for others is a permanent condition. Genuinely good people are rare, always have been. At best we're neutral, and any decline in violence comes from civil society, law, and order.

 

[steve_bank]

Alhohol, diet, and drigs are the major cost drivers of health care.

I saw it up close in the hopsital, nirding home, asssted living, and in my senior building.

Going back to the 60s Jim Morrison, Jimi Hmedrix, and Janice Joplin detroted themseves and died yioung, yet are pop culture icons.

Curt Cobain blew his head off with a shotgun, yet is a pop culture hero.

If oiu are damiliar with the times, Pigpen and Garcia of the Greatful Dead drnk ad drugged themselves to early deaths. Garcia is a music hero, almost mythical.

Disfunctiionality has become normalized. It is in music, TV, movies, and video gasmen.

Buddhism is the oppose of self destructive behavior. Self moderation.

It is all in the 8 Fold Path. Self moderate your behavior.

Our p[olitics has descended into utter hate speech and anger. Not just the extremes. I watched the Washington politcal attack ads from both rthe left and right. Nothing but personal attack and fear mongering.

Whatever we had for an underlying ethic is gone.

Therre are few exceptions in politics, Liz Cheney being one. She sacrificed her politicl career as a republican to participate in the Jan 6 committee.

Our culturealmost entirely self centered.

 

[rousseau]

He went walkabout. Fiirst he tried the extreme self deprivation practices of the ascetics. That did not make him happy. In the end he finds the Middle way. Avoid both extreme self denial and extreme excess. Today we call it a balanced life.

You might be interested to know that this is a common misread of the middle way. Originally, it was actually a system of logical negation:

- I am ignorant
- I am not ignorant
- I am not, not ignorant
etc

The idea being that most propositions aren't absolutely true, so you end up in a conceptual middle ground. As explained in this book.

This logical system would apply to excess and self-denial, though.

 

[steve_bank]

For the record I am not Buddhist.

And now you are entering into theological debate and interpretation of scripture. There are copious Buddhist writings going back thousands of years.

For me it comes down to how you live your life.

It is the same as Christianity, no one knows who Buddha may have been and exactly what he taught. In Chrstianity aul never knew Jesus but influential in Christianity. His interpretations became a large part of Christianity.

I have listend to interviews with the Dali Lama and read his book on mediation. For him it is not abstract and intellectual, it is pracatcal applied to daily living.
l.
He called his attempt at reconciling China and Tibet a Middle Way approach that failed.

 

[abaddon]

The problem about desires is they involve the person deeper into their self-centeredness. I'd sum up Buddhism as "get over yourself". Moderating one's attachment to desires is just a feature of that.

IME the hard-to-attain ideal in Buddhism was to sustain mindfulness all the time. Stepping outside the clamor of the mind isn't hard. But staying 'stepped-out' is very hard.

As I understand "enlightenment", it's not a lofty attainment. A person can, potentially, see it in a moment if it's very well explained and their mind is open to it. The bigger challenge is staying identified with the light of awareness instead of with the clamoring mind. You have to keep coming back to awake-awareness. I suppose folk with years of meditation have an easier time coming back and staying there for longer periods of time. The good news though is you don't have to; I find that some time spent as awake-awareness seeps into the rest of life. There's a spill-over effect... but still, it fades.

Probably some folk could use other techniques than the effort at mindfulness. One technique I tested from Stoicism was negative visualization. It involves imagining how bad things could be, to bring home to you how good things are by contrast. For example, you might close your eyes and imagine you're blind; get into it. Then open and savor the sights, and get into it. Even just one minute of this should have some impact. So probably a routine practice of gratitude, like a gratitude journal, can alter how life feels. I would imagine it might revolutionize a life, from the attitude "this isn't the life I wanted" to an embrace of how life is.

In many ways, I think religious/spiritual practice is about revolutionizing the felt-quality of life by looking at it with new eyes. In metaphorical terms, "hell" is a dismal mind seeing the world through fearful or resentful eyes, and "heaven" is a mind in love with the display of phenomena ("the world", or "the creation"). "To see... heaven in a wild flower" and all that.

So a strenuous "stay mindful of here-now experience" isn't the one thing that needs so much emphasis. There are little contemplative practices that can help too.

 

[rousseau]

The problem about desires is they involve the person deeper into their self-centeredness. I'd sum up Buddhism as "get over yourself". Moderating one's attachment to desires is just a feature of that.

IME the hard-to-attain ideal in Buddhism was to sustain mindfulness all the time. Stepping outside the clamor of the mind isn't hard. But staying 'stepped-out' is very hard.

As I understand "enlightenment", it's not a lofty attainment. A person can, potentially, see it in a moment if it's very well explained and their mind is open to it. The bigger challenge is staying identified with the light of awareness instead of with the clamoring mind. You have to keep coming back to awake-awareness. I suppose folk with years of meditation have an easier time coming back and staying there for longer periods of time. The good news though is you don't have to; I find that some time spent as awake-awareness seeps into the rest of life. There's a spill-over effect... but still, it fades.

Probably some folk could use other techniques than the effort at mindfulness. One technique I tested from Stoicism was negative visualization. It involves imagining how bad things could be, to bring home to you how good things are by contrast. For example, you might close your eyes and imagine you're blind; get into it. Then open and savor the sights, and get into it. Even just one minute of this should have some impact. So probably a routine practice of gratitude, like a gratitude journal, can alter how life feels. I would imagine it might revolutionize a life, from the attitude "this isn't the life I wanted" to an embrace of how life is.

In many ways, I think religious/spiritual practice is about revolutionizing the felt-quality of life by looking at it with new eyes. In metaphorical terms, "hell" is a dismal mind seeing the world through fearful or resentful eyes, and "heaven" is a mind in love with the display of phenomena ("the world", or "the creation"). "To see... heaven in a wild flower" and all that.

So a strenuous "stay mindful of here-now experience" isn't the one thing that needs so much emphasis. There are little contemplative practices that can help too.

I'm no expert on Buddhist history, but it seems like there was movement from the initial idea (transcendence of desire) to a more complex experiential system, Zen being an example. IOW, some strands of Buddhism became more sophisticated over time, as you would typically see in any given religion.

Some out there today are what I'd call hard Buddhists who buy into the quasi-supernatural element of it, while others are able to extract wisdom and philosophy out of the overall system. I'd argue that this wisdom, which you summed up very eloquently, is important for the rational mind.

To me that's an ironic element of Buddhism - de-emphasis on one's own ego isn't just a spiritual step, but I'd argue a step toward greater objective awareness and ability. Someone who gets Buddhism is going to be a better parent, partner, friend, leader.. everything. And yet this very wisdom feels contrary to what Buddhism's actually achieved - expanding the intellect.

So maybe what we have in Buddhism is a solid philosophical system, shrouded in religious language.