• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Can a dead human brain be restarted?

As emergency medical workers know, you're not dead until you're warm and dead.

It's not practical to confirm brain death in hypothermic patients; Some apparently dead people with severe hypothermia come good when you warm them up - particularly if they had a high blood alcohol level to begin with.

But essentially the OP question is ass-backwards. Death is defined as a state from which the brain cannot be restarted, so if you can restart the brain, then you were (by definition) incorrect to believe that patient was dead.

I think the point is what truly is "dead". Just because we can't restart it with current technology doesn't mean there's no hope with more advanced technology.

If nothing else, what if you put the body (or perhaps just the head, it might be faster) under extreme pressure and then quickly chill it down to cryogenic temperatures. Then pick the brain apart atom by atom, recording everything. Could the mind be reconstructed? Perhaps only into a computer, but by the time we can do that the computer power will most likely be there. (Remember, the brain is incredibly parallel. We could build a supercomputer capable of emulating a human brain--no actual understanding of how thought works needed--at realtime speeds now. It would be exceedingly expensive, though.)
 
As emergency medical workers know, you're not dead until you're warm and dead.

It's not practical to confirm brain death in hypothermic patients; Some apparently dead people with severe hypothermia come good when you warm them up - particularly if they had a high blood alcohol level to begin with.

But essentially the OP question is ass-backwards. Death is defined as a state from which the brain cannot be restarted, so if you can restart the brain, then you were (by definition) incorrect to believe that patient was dead.
That's a rather flexible definition of death. Suppose you could slice a brain up and scan the slices with an instrument precise enough to record every neuron and their connections, and then later simulate those neurons in a computer. Clearly, the original brain is dead. But the brain function, which is really what it's all about, would be replicated and restarted in a simulation. So by your definition, the sliced-up brain would not in fact be dead, which is a bit counter-intuitive.

What about those cryogenically frozen heads then? We don't know whether the brain cells are undamaged enough to be scanned sometime in the future, nor whether anyone would have an economic incentive to do so, but that is at least hypothetically possible. Would it be a misnomer to call these people dead regardless?
 
As emergency medical workers know, you're not dead until you're warm and dead.

It's not practical to confirm brain death in hypothermic patients; Some apparently dead people with severe hypothermia come good when you warm them up - particularly if they had a high blood alcohol level to begin with.

But essentially the OP question is ass-backwards. Death is defined as a state from which the brain cannot be restarted, so if you can restart the brain, then you were (by definition) incorrect to believe that patient was dead.
That's a rather flexible definition of death. Suppose you could slice a brain up and scan the slices with an instrument precise enough to record every neuron and their connections, and then later simulate those neurons in a computer. Clearly, the original brain is dead. But the brain function, which is really what it's all about, would be replicated and restarted in a simulation. So by your definition, the sliced-up brain would not in fact be dead, which is a bit counter-intuitive.

What about those cryogenically frozen heads then? We don't know whether the brain cells are undamaged enough to be scanned sometime in the future, nor whether anyone would have an economic incentive to do so, but that is at least hypothetically possible. Would it be a misnomer to call these people dead regardless?

Medicine isn't a logic puzzle. Almost all of the definitions in medicine (and for that matter, many of those in biology) are woolly and vague around the edges.

If you are brought into a modern first world ER with a body temperature of a few °C, and no apparent signs of life, but equally no signs of trauma incompatible with life, then they will attempt to revive you by carefully increasing your body temperature. If you don't exhibit any brain activity once your body temperature is over about 30°C, then they will (retrospectively) declare that you were dead on arrival.

If you are brought in with your head detached from your body, they won't hesitate to declare you dead.

Nobody's going to say "Stop! You can't issue a death certificate until you are confident that this person's brain couldn't be scanned and replicated in an operational state at some future time!". But maybe one day, they will.

Definitions of death have changed as medicine has improved. Not so long ago, death was defined by the absence of cardiac activity, rather than the absence of brain activity - indeed, I believe that's still the legal standard in Japan, and it's a cultural belief common in South East Asia. This leads to all kinds of problems for patients on heart-lung machines, and for dead people whose heartbeat is maintained by a pacemaker, for example - the former can be declared dead, but then recover, and the latter can tie up significant resources looking after a corpse.

Human life is poorly defined, but then "life" is too. No good definition of life exists - there are lots of definitions, but none include all of the things that people want to include, while excluding all the things that people don't want to consider 'alive'. Typically they are a grab-bag of features, not all of which need to be present. For example, the ability to reproduce appears in many definitions, but as this implies that a vasectomy is an invariably fatal procedure, it clearly isn't necessary; And as some crystal structures reproduce, but are generally excluded from consideration as 'alive', it's also clearly not sufficient.

I strongly suspect that the real problem is that 'life' isn't a thing. There's no real dichotomy of entities with all falling into either "alive" or "not alive", and the only real reason why this false dichotomy is so popular is a hangover from dualism - itself a hangover from religion.

"Alive" is what we call our preferred collections of complex cyclic chemistry. The 'preferred' and 'complex' terms render it a matter of pure opinion.

Is a virus alive? It is if you want it to be.
 
People have been working the problem of the structure and function of the physical universe for centuries.

See THE UNIVERSE AROUND US: AN INTEGRATIVE VIEW OF SCIENCE AND COSMOLOGY http://math_research.uct.ac.za/~ellis/cos0.html

Specifically
5.4.5 The probability of life

One of the most interesting questions we can ask is whether or not there is life on other planets in our Galaxy, or elsewhere in the visible Universe. This has been the subject of ongoing debate, with some protagonists believing it is very probable, so that there are likely to be millions of planets in the Galaxy with life on them; while others maintain we are the only self-conscious beings in the entire visible Universe [93-95].

The problem in making the estimates is the many uncertainties not only in the probability of formation of a planet like Earth, but of the evolution of life (first single celled forms, and then more complex forms) once conditions on the surface of the planet had settled down enough for living systems to have a chance to survive. A view held strongly by some is that there are so many improbable steps in the evolution of complex life forms, that life cannot exist anywhere else in the Universe except on the Earth. In biological terms this places the human race at the centre of the Universe, by stating that the Earth is the one unique planet on which intelligent life has evolved (despite the fact there are something like ten thousand billion billion stars in the observable region of the Universe - and could be an infinite number in the unobserved regions).

In my view we should resist this return to a pre-Copernican view, with ourselves the only conscious beings in the entire Universe and therefore the highest state of organisation that exists, unless it is absolutely necessitated by proper estimates of all the probabilities involved; however these simply are not known at present. Until we are forced to conclude otherwise, I would suggest the presumption must be that we are not unique; the laws of physics and chemistry that created life here would also have done so elsewhere, given this vast array of stars (a reasonable proportion of which must have planetary systems where the same processes that operated to create life here would be at work). Indeed many agree that there is a good probability of extraterrestrial life in our galaxy and in others [webpage], but not necessarily near enough to communicate with.

However other approaches or perspectives are treated as well within this tome.

What has just been presented does not change nor challenge bilby's reasoning. It just points to the likelihood that there is an organizational aspect to the workings of entropy. It has been suggested energy disrupted seeks least loss or progressive organization This would explain why and how gravity organizes big physical things and how evolution organizes chemical and biological things.
 
^ ^ ^
That is a rather odd article.
It starts the first paragraph with "One of the most interesting questions we can ask is whether or not there is life on other planets in our Galaxy, or elsewhere in the visible Universe." then ends it with, "... while others maintain we are the only self-conscious beings in the entire visible Universe."

The probability of life and the probability of "self-conscious beings" are very different questions with very different probabilities. Then I noticed it was written by a mathematician rather than an organic chemist or biologist.
 
I agree with your observation skepticalbip. However the topic addressed in the document is so broad that the two life perspectives are but an eyelash apart.

My point in presenting the article is to provide context to the question of whether we address living ad hoc or whether we address it as a coherent topic in relation to our understanding of the physical universe.

Bilby wrote:
I strongly suspect that the real problem is that 'life' isn't a thing. There's no real dichotomy of entities with all falling into either "alive" or "not alive", and the only real reason why this false dichotomy is so popular is a hangover from dualism - itself a hangover from religion.

"Alive" is what we call our preferred collections of complex cyclic chemistry. The 'preferred' and 'complex' terms render it a matter of pure opinion.

Is a virus alive? It is if you want it to be.

While I agree with bilby that dualism and religion are among the great satans it is obvious humans, as shown in the the article, have been addressing the topic of life/death within the context of all things physical in the universe for some time.
 
Last edited:
^ ^ ^
That is a rather odd article.
It starts the first paragraph with "One of the most interesting questions we can ask is whether or not there is life on other planets in our Galaxy, or elsewhere in the visible Universe." then ends it with, "... while others maintain we are the only self-conscious beings in the entire visible Universe."

The probability of life and the probability of "self-conscious beings" are very different questions with very different probabilities. Then I noticed it was written by a mathematician rather than an organic chemist or biologist.

As I live with three dogs and two cats, I am at least as confident that humans are not the only self conscious beings, as I am that humans other than me are self conscious beings.
 
^ ^ ^
That is a rather odd article.
It starts the first paragraph with "One of the most interesting questions we can ask is whether or not there is life on other planets in our Galaxy, or elsewhere in the visible Universe." then ends it with, "... while others maintain we are the only self-conscious beings in the entire visible Universe."

The probability of life and the probability of "self-conscious beings" are very different questions with very different probabilities. Then I noticed it was written by a mathematician rather than an organic chemist or biologist.

As I live with three dogs and two cats, I am at least as confident that humans are not the only self conscious beings, as I am that humans other than me are self conscious beings.
Life on Earth appeared pretty much as soon (in geological time) as it cooled enough from the accretion era... single celled organisms. This certainly doesn't 'prove' that the chance of life arising is reasonably high in the right conditions but it does suggest it could be. It wasn't until over two billion years later that multi-celled life appeared then quickly followed by the cambrian explosion soon (in geological time) followed by critters capable of self awareness. The more than two billion year gap between life and self aware critters would indicate to me that the probability of self aware 'beings' is much less than the probability of life. You are right that a critter doesn't have to be human to be self aware but I would posit that it would need to be a multicellular critter.
 
Back
Top Bottom