Can boldness attract God?

[Saint_of_Me]

One of my favorite quotes if the German statesman, philosopher, and writer Johann Wofgang von Goethe, who once said "Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid."

I like to believe this is true. Since my personal version of God is a Deist one--that of an All Powerful but yet non-biblical one. Definitely not Abrahamic. More of an Impersonal sort of Universal Intelligence--the Knowing Fabric of the Cosmos--which can be "tapped into" in order to gain personal strength and Insight.

I also believe the source of this is scientific. I'm not sure how it works exactly but I feel it might have to do with tuning our minds into the correct "frequency" so as to tap into it. Like a radio or TV signal.

Thus: when we are seeking to perform bold or righteous or loving or noble acts, the frequency is correct and we can be Emboldened.

And of course this is not a new idea. It has been bandied about for awhile. In different forms. "Like attracts Like." Or that uber-popular book several years ago, "The Secret."

There is a good chance that Goethe also believed along these lines, as he was raised Lutheran, veered away from that Faith, then became a sort of Pantheist, and finally was thought to have some mystical leanings toward those of an ancient Greek Pagan group.

So...."Be Bold and Mighty Forces Will Come to Your Aid."

What do YOU think of this idea?


Thanks......Drew.

 

[Shadowy Man]

It is likely that being bold bolsters one's confidence and attitude about one's actions and resulting consequences.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Who decides if your cause is worthy, though?

Do the people fighting for abortion rights, who feel their cause is righteous, have access to invisible power aid, or do those who fight for the innocent preborn, who have the same self-image of their cause?

During the civil war, abolitionists and slavers were both certain they were on God's side of the argument. Who got mighty forces to aid them? How could we tell?

 

[dystopian]

You can not be a deist and also believe that god (in whatever form) can give you strength or insight in any way. The whole point of Deism is that a deistic god doesn't interfere with the universe in any meaningful way, letting it run entirely on the laws of nature; and that this god can only be 'known' second-hand via reason and observation of nature and NOT through revelation or supernatural manifestation.

Therefore, either you misunderstand Deism and should redefine your personal beliefs to not be Deistic, or your should give up the idea that you can tap into some sort of knowing fabric of the cosmos by being bold (or through any other way).


Now, if we're talking about 'mighty forces' in a mundane way, then it depends. Certainly people who show boldness will often inspire others to follow their example and thus a 'mighty force' might 'come to their aid'... but there is nothing mystical or amazing about this nor is it at all guaranteed (indeed, it often seems to provoke said mighty forcing coming to beat your ass down instead).

 

[Saint_of_Me]

Who decides if your cause is worthy, though?

Do the people fighting for abortion rights, who feel their cause is righteous, have access to invisible power aid, or do those who fight for the innocent preborn, who have the same self-image of their cause?

During the civil war, abolitionists and slavers were both certain they were on God's side of the argument. Who got mighty forces to aid them? How could we tell?

This is the Big Question.

the best that I can come up with is that the Universal Mind would be one that was always "in favor of" or would be tapped into if the mindset or actions in question were those that lead to helping others. The species to survive and prosper. With no discrimination. That is, with matters like wars and, say, cops killing bad guys, the "Force" would be neutral and not tapped into. the frequency emanating from the participants would not 'be right.

 

[Saint_of_Me]

You can not be a deist and also believe that god (in whatever form) can give you strength or insight in any way. The whole point of Deism is that a deistic god doesn't interfere with the universe in any meaningful way, letting it run entirely on the laws of nature; and that this god can only be 'known' second-hand via reason and observation of nature and NOT through revelation or supernatural manifestation.

Therefore, either you misunderstand Deism and should redefine your personal beliefs to not be Deistic, or your should give up the idea that you can tap into some sort of knowing fabric of the cosmos by being bold (or through any other way).


Now, if we're talking about 'mighty forces' in a mundane way, then it depends. Certainly people who show boldness will often inspire others to follow their example and thus a 'mighty force' might 'come to their aid'... but there is nothing mystical or amazing about this nor is it at all guaranteed (indeed, it often seems to provoke said mighty forcing coming to beat your ass down instead).

I disagree.

Remember, I said in my OP that I believe the origin, the actual source for my "Mighty Force" would be, at the end of the day, a scientific one. Some sort of Field Theory, as the physicist guys would call it. Residual Energy. Like a spiritual form of CBR? You know: the stuff the COBE discovered form the Big Bang?

Thus: the term "God" need not be used for my Mighty Force. And it in now way has any anthropomorphic aspects to it, like all those other Gods. My Force is as "God" like as, say, the Solar Wind and the Northern Lights.

Does that help?

 

[Shadowy Man]

You know: the stuff the COBE discovered form the Big Bang?

Actually, COBE didn't discover the cosmic background. It was launched to study it.

 

[dystopian]

I disagree.

Remember, I said in my OP that I believe the origin, the actual source for my "Mighty Force" would be, at the end of the day, a scientific one. Some sort of Field Theory, as the physicist guys would call it. Residual Energy. Like a spiritual form of CBR? You know: the stuff the COBE discovered form the Big Bang?

Thus: the term "God" need not be used for my Mighty Force. And it in now way has any anthropomorphic aspects to it, like all those other Gods. My Force is as "God" like as, say, the Solar Wind and the Northern Lights.

Does that help?

No. Your explanation does nothing to reconcile your position with that of deism. It doesn't matter that you define your god as 'some sort of field theory' or anything else. What matters is that you claim that you can 'tap into' this god/force and gain strength from it; that is 'god' interacting with the universe, and therefore that 'god' simply *can not* be a deistic god since deism explicitly prohibits such interaction.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

This sounds like just another way of saying "God helps those who help themselves". If you help yourself, you have a better chance of succeeding and this allows you to credit your success to someone who wasn't involved with it if that's what you feel like doing. Similarly, if you act boldly, you have a better chance of success and then you can credit that success to whatever woo-woo concepts you feel like, despite those concepts being unrelated to the results.

 

[Keith&Co.]

the best that I can come up with is that the Universal Mind would be one that was always "in favor of" or would be tapped into if the mindset or actions in question were those that lead to helping others.

Ever read Marvel? Magneto is usually cast as 'helping' others. Just his people, though, downtrodden and discriminated Mutants. He is usually perceived as a villain by the human race that he keeps killing members of, or threatening to kill, but his motivation is to help.

That is, with matters like wars and, say, cops killing bad guys, the "Force" would be neutral and not tapped into. the frequency emanating from the participants would not 'be right.

That would not be 'neutral.'
That's also pretty far from 'deist.'

- - - Updated - - -

This sounds like just another way of saying "God helps those who help themselves". If you help yourself, you have a better chance of succeeding and this allows you to credit your success to someone who wasn't involved

Just like 'it's always in the last place you look.' Simply because no one looks any more after they find it, not because it's hiding from you on purpose.

 

[Atheos]

I try not to get too wrapped around argument by definition, as dystopian is attempting to do above. If Saint_of_Me's god doesn't exactly fit the deist mold it's pretty close. I can conceptually accept the idea of a deistic god who doesn't really care about what goes on in the created universe, but whose energy can be tapped into in some way. There is a huge gulf between a theistic god who actively participates in attempting to control the universe and a deistic one who created but otherwise has absolutely no involvement in the affairs of the universe.

Having said that, the premise that something is "scientific" as Saint_of_Me has suggested entails a lot more than woo, which at this point is all he has. A few isolated anecdotes about folks tuning in to some power is worthless from a scientific viewpoint until a formal effort has been made to conduct some decent investigation under controlled circumstances whereby said results can be evaluated without immediate resort to confirmation bias. Until then you've got woo. And there is certainly plenty of that in the world.

Not trying to harsh your mojo, just trying to put a little perspective on what you're claiming. Find someone who can predictably use the force to levitate a beer out of the cooler and we've got something worth calling "scientific." Until then if you've got something that gives you a warm feeling and emboldens you to venture out and make things happen, by all means enjoy. I remember thinking when I was a kid that when I took a vitamin pill it gave me super powers for awhile, kind of like Underdog. Never was able to fly though.

 

[Sarpedon]

History is littered with the corpses of bold men. Only those that manage to succeed go on to talk about how their boldness made them powerful.

However, this guy did manage to propose something testable. If boldness attracts god, then we can do increasingly bold things in a laboratory setting, and see if god shows up.

 

[Keith&Co.]

If boldness attracts god, then we can do increasingly bold things in a laboratory setting, and see if god shows up.

I wonder if A&E could make this a reality show? The Emboldening.
We could even get the viewers to vote on whether or not the act was righteous.

 

[Shadowy Man]

History is littered with the corpses of bold men. Only those that manage to succeed go on to talk about how their boldness made them powerful.

However, this guy did manage to propose something testable. If boldness attracts god, then we can do increasingly bold things in a laboratory setting, and see if god shows up.

It's not testable until you can define what "god" is and be able to measure when "god shows up".

 

[Tom Sawyer]

History is littered with the corpses of bold men. Only those that manage to succeed go on to talk about how their boldness made them powerful.

However, this guy did manage to propose something testable. If boldness attracts god, then we can do increasingly bold things in a laboratory setting, and see if god shows up.

It's not testable until you can define what "god" is and be able to measure when "god shows up".

As a general rule, if it's not blatantly fucking obvious when God shows up, then it probably wasn't God who showed up.

 

[Sarpedon]

That's the whole point. You put all kinds of detectors out. When you detect some unexplained signal when bold things are done, that's god.

It doesn't matter that is circular. It's religion after all.

 

[Saint_of_Me]

You know: the stuff the COBE discovered form the Big Bang?

Actually, COBE didn't discover the cosmic background. It was launched to study it.

yeah yeah...Penzias and Wilson and Bell Labs and all that, whatever.

But I trust you got my point. Thanks for the nitpick though! LOL

 

[Saint_of_Me]

That's the whole point. You put all kinds of detectors out. When you detect some unexplained signal when bold things are done, that's god.

It doesn't matter that is circular. It's religion after all.

Hmm..I dunno.

Let us take a gander at Mr. Webster's def of "religion".....

"a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

So..if you can honestly read my OP idea of this "Bold Force" and how I think it might be accessed (note I never said "worshipped") and still claim it is is religion--after reading the above definition--then I feel it would probably be of little use to argue the point with you further. Thus: have it your way if it makes you feel better.

But I would also remind you that I did not ask for opinions of what my idea should be defined as. I simply asked you guys your opinion of the idea, and the possibilities.

I am new here, and I must say that when I joined I was not quite aware that this would be such an zealously atheistic site. I was figuring on a more agnostic flavor, with some new Age stuff or maybe Eastern Thought tossed in. Even a few Christians. Like on another forum I am a member of: debate.org.

I find that sort of mix more fun and more conducive to lively debates.

Mind you, I am an agnostic and certainly nobody's idea of a Christian. But I am also a couple clicks to the left of Sam Harris or Rich Dawkins.

After being here a couple weeks I am beginning to understand why so many people avoid atheist websites because they feel them boring.

I might be spending a bit less time here, and on debate.org.

Nuthin' personal.


Drew.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Alright, so if you try hard, and you succeed, it wasn't because you tried hard, but rather mysticism.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I am new here, and I must say that when I joined I was not quite aware that this would be such an zealously atheistic site.

You think this is zealousness?

I was figuring on a more agnostic flavor, with some new Age stuff or maybe Eastern Thought tossed in. Even a few Christians. Like on another forum I am a member of: debate.org.

This is talkfreethough.org not debate.org. There is a cross section here. "You" just haven't been here "very long" to be able to properly see it.

Mind you, I am an agnostic and certainly nobody's idea of a Christian.

What happened to your Deism from the OP?

After being here a couple weeks I am beginning to understand why so many people avoid atheist websites because they feel them boring.

Kitten BBQ's start in the late spring. People just need to deal with the doldrums of no Kitten BBQ's.

I might be spending a bit less time here, and on debate.org.

Nuthin' personal.

Aww...