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Can thoughts be moral or immoral?

laughing dog

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I am not a regular in this particular subforum, so please excuse this OP if it is duplicative. I am interested in your thinking about this question.

Do you think thought (or a thought) can be moral or immoral?

I am not interested in whether there should be punishment or criminal liability for thought but just the basic idea - can a thought be moral or immoral and why?
 
Not even in principle.

moral

/ˈmɒr(ə)l/
Learn to pronounce



adjective
adjective: moral


1.
concerned with the principles of right and wrong behaviour.



Thoughts are not behaviour.
 
....can a thought be moral or immoral....

In principle, yes. Thinking is an action, arguably a deed.

If someone hates you, and wants to torture and kill you, and you know it, that causes you harm (distress) even if they never attack you.

I think I will go back to the example I made i PD, as it is equally valid in this side of the forum:

Thoughts can be immoral.

Thoughts cannot be unethical.

One may ask how this is not some kind of bizarre contradiction. It is quite simple insofar as morality can be seen as separate from ethics, as the way you drive your own experience, and exert agency.

But this is different from ethics insofar as ethics is created by social interaction, with respect to what obligations we have for each other if we would so have others bound to us.

For a concrete example, let us suppose one day I am accosted by someone on the train who starts screaming bad poetry. This man is black, and from the depths of my mind, I have an invasive thought "what a ------..."

This is a thought. It is most certainly not the sort of thought a person should want to have. It is so much a thought that I personally do not want to have that I spend the next ten minutes lecturing myself on why such thoughts are inappropriate.

The fact of the matter is, when a thought of such repugnance is had, a response is warranted.

But, nobody can punish this racist thought. It wasn't said out loud, was not even expressed in any intentional way. It was not unethical. It did not impose on anyone but me, and it came from me!

I would rather think that the tendencies of someone who pays no mind to the appropriateness of their thought would not be a good neighbor. I believe some guy named Camus wrote about someone who paid no reflection on his actions, and another named Voltaire had some things to say about such a failure to reflect as well.

... I would note that in the example, the obnoxious person was, still, a terrible neighbor.
 
....can a thought be moral or immoral....

In principle, yes. Thinking is an action, arguably a deed.

If someone hates you, and wants to torture and kill you, and you know it, that causes you harm (distress) even if they never attack you.

If someone hates you, and wants to torture and kill you, and you know it because they told you that in order to cause you distress, they've taken an action to harm you. But it was the making you believe it that harmed you. In fact, their internal thoughts about how much they want to torture and kill you are irrelevant. They might not want to do that at all. The harm was making you believe it was a serious possibility that they'd do it.

Thoughts are not actions, they are thoughts.
 
....can a thought be moral or immoral....

In principle, yes. Thinking is an action, arguably a deed.

If someone hates you, and wants to torture and kill you, and you know it, that causes you harm (distress) even if they never attack you.

If someone hates you, and wants to torture and kill you, and you know it because they told you that in order to cause you distress, they've taken an action to harm you. But it was the making you believe it that harmed you. In fact, their internal thoughts about how much they want to torture and kill you are irrelevant. They might not want to do that at all. The harm was making you believe it was a serious possibility that they'd do it.

Thoughts are not actions, they are thoughts.

This. The immoral action was expressing the thought, not having it.
 
One definition of moral is

adjective
adjective: moral

1.
concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.


It seems to me that means thoughts (since principles are thoughts) can be moral or immoral.

Again, I am not asking about whether having a particular thought is moral or immoral. Just whether a thought can moral or immoral.
 
One definition of moral is

adjective
adjective: moral

1.
concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.


It seems to me that means thoughts (since principles are thoughts) can be moral or immoral.

Again, I am not asking about whether having a particular thought is moral or immoral. Just whether a thought can moral or immoral.

Thoughts can be about morality but that doesn't make any thought moral or immoral.
 
... let us suppose one day I am accosted by someone on the train who starts screaming bad poetry. This man is black, and from the depths of my mind, I have an invasive thought "what a ------..."

This is a thought. It is most certainly not the sort of thought a person should want to have. It is so much a thought that I personally do not want to have that I spend the next ten minutes lecturing myself on why such thoughts are inappropriate....

Yes, nothing is in and of itself objectively moral or immoral, these are judgements. And your own thoughts can be judged immoral, by you. No one else has to know them. Qed, I think.
 
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Thoughts are not behaviour.

Sure they are.

I agree. Thoughts (or thinking) is literally the behaviour of your brain.

And it can also be a deliberate, intended action or activity.

For example: 'What did you do last night'? 'Oh I stayed in my room and spent most of the night just thinking; there were some things I knew I needed to think carefully about'.
 
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All morality is a thought. There is no "moral" or "immoral" until someone assigns a moral judgement to an action, an act that occurs purely within their mind. And as such, it seems little different to me whether I say "I think that action is immoral" or "I think that thought is immoral", it's all in my head either way.
 
One definition of moral is

adjective
adjective: moral

1.
concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.


It seems to me that means thoughts (since principles are thoughts) can be moral or immoral.

Again, I am not asking about whether having a particular thought is moral or immoral. Just whether a thought can moral or immoral.

Imagine two hypothetical scenarios. In both, a man is driving a car at night on a dimly-lit street. The car drives over a drunk man lying unconscious in the middle of the road. The scenarios are identical in every miniscule way, except that in one, the driver did not see the drunk man and in the other he saw him but drove over him deliberately. The only difference in the moralities is the thinking, legally the mens rea.
 
This. The immoral action was expressing the thought, not having it.

So lusting in your heart isn't a sin? Nor covetousness?

...no, of course they are not.

A sin is a sin because it offends god. And there is no god.


I agree with you (more or less -- that's not exactly how I'd define sin, because bible god loves sin, which is part of his plan) but the question was directed at Loren. If Loren also agrees with you, we'll have to work a different angle.
 
Not even in principle.

moral

/ˈmɒr(ə)l/
Learn to pronounce



adjective
adjective: moral


1.
concerned with the principles of right and wrong behaviour.

Ok. That's 1. How about...

2. Holding or manifesting high principles for proper conduct.

https://www.lexico.com/definition/moral

So the holding of the principles can also be said to be included. And humans don't hold principles in their arses. Well, not usually.

That thoughts can be about morality does not mean thoughts can be moral.
 
One definition of moral is

adjective
adjective: moral

1.
concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior and the goodness or badness of human character.


It seems to me that means thoughts (since principles are thoughts) can be moral or immoral.

Again, I am not asking about whether having a particular thought is moral or immoral. Just whether a thought can moral or immoral.

Imagine two hypothetical scenarios. In both, a man is driving a car at night on a dimly-lit street. The car drives over a drunk man lying unconscious in the middle of the road. The scenarios are identical in every miniscule way, except that in one, the driver did not see the drunk man and in the other he saw him but drove over him deliberately. The only difference in the moralities is the thinking, legally the mens rea.

Yeast makes bread fluffy, but yeast is not fluffy.
 
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