CapitalismGate

[barbos]

Inspired by RussiaGate which is really facebookGate, which itself is CapitalismGate.

Zuckerberg saw that he can profit more by allowing dissemination of lies and crap, and he did.
Same story with FoxNews, their profits depend on lies their viewers like to hear.
OAN, same story, apparently AT&T invested in that. This is all about money. Democracy be damned.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Inspired by RussiaGate which is really facebookGate, which itself is CapitalismGate.

Zuckerberg saw that he can profit more by allowing dissemination of lies and crap, and he did.
Same story with FoxNews, their profits depend on lies their viewers like to hear.
OAN, same story, apparently AT&T invested in that. This is all about money. Democracy be damned.

I predict that as the authoritarian regimes continue to march forward and grow and expand (China and Russia et all): some day we will miss the days of capitalism/democracy.

 

[barbos]

Inspired by RussiaGate which is really facebookGate, which itself is CapitalismGate.

Zuckerberg saw that he can profit more by allowing dissemination of lies and crap, and he did.
Same story with FoxNews, their profits depend on lies their viewers like to hear.
OAN, same story, apparently AT&T invested in that. This is all about money. Democracy be damned.

I predict that as the authoritarian regimes continue to march forward and grow and expand (China and Russia et all): some day we will miss the days of capitalism/democracy.

Are you sure this is how it will happen, by some external forces? Instead of via bean counters who decide that 1% growth is more important than facts/truth?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Inspired by RussiaGate which is really facebookGate, which itself is CapitalismGate.

Zuckerberg saw that he can profit more by allowing dissemination of lies and crap, and he did.
Same story with FoxNews, their profits depend on lies their viewers like to hear.
OAN, same story, apparently AT&T invested in that. This is all about money. Democracy be damned.

I predict that as the authoritarian regimes continue to march forward and grow and expand (China and Russia et all): some day we will miss the days of capitalism/democracy.

Are you sure this is how it will happen, by some external forces? Instead of via bean counters who decide that 1% growth is more important than facts/truth?

Many countries (countries near China, Eastern Europe) are threatened by external forces. The US's greatest threat comes from within. But regardless, it's an aside to your main point. I'm not shocked in the least about lies that Fox or Facebook tell. They are both trying to grow their customer base and increase profits. But at the end of day, we all have a choice. If you don't like Fox or Facebook, don't use or rely on their platforms. I certainly don't.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Inspired by RussiaGate which is really facebookGate, which itself is CapitalismGate.

Zuckerberg saw that he can profit more by allowing dissemination of lies and crap, and he did.
Same story with FoxNews, their profits depend on lies their viewers like to hear.
OAN, same story, apparently AT&T invested in that. This is all about money. Democracy be damned.

I predict that as the authoritarian regimes continue to march forward and grow and expand (China and Russia et all): some day we will miss the days of capitalism/democracy.

Are you sure this is how it will happen, by some external forces? Instead of via bean counters who decide that 1% growth is more important than facts/truth?

People keep saying this and it isn't how the human brain is wired. Humans say they care about the truth (it is so cute when Trump supporters say it, especially relative to news media), but what they really want is to be right. Our brains are wired to spin inconvenient truths into a partisan lie in our mind.

And this isn't new. People have been making a career lying for centuries. As far as Facebook, they aren't selling lies or truth, just eyeballs. And they don't care what those eyeballs are reading. Much like eBay doesn't care about pirated media as long as they get their cut. Profit for profit sake is the mantra. America's democracy has been hampered by this, but the truth is, our downfall started when Nixon said they needed to embrace racism in the South. And that happened a long time before social media.

 

[barbos]

Are you sure this is how it will happen, by some external forces? Instead of via bean counters who decide that 1% growth is more important than facts/truth?

Many countries (countries near China, Eastern Europe) are threatened by external forces. The US's greatest threat comes from within. But regardless, it's an aside to your main point. I'm not shocked in the least about lies that Fox or Facebook tell. They are both trying to grow their customer base and increase profits. But at the end of day, we all have a choice. If you don't like Fox or Facebook, don't use or rely on their platforms. I certainly don't.

So everybody can do whatever they want? Drugs, drunk driving, lying on the news. Everybody has a choice.
It does not bother you that FoxNews and AON business model was "There are bunch of people who wants to hear certain lies and we will provide them with that"? From the get-go that was their business model. Facebook slowly morphed to that, or rather they cover all bases - everybody gets what they want, we have no leanings.

 

[barbos]

Are you sure this is how it will happen, by some external forces? Instead of via bean counters who decide that 1% growth is more important than facts/truth?

People keep saying this and it isn't how the human brain is wired. Humans say they care about the truth (it is so cute when Trump supporters say it, especially relative to news media), but what they really want is to be right. Our brains are wired to spin inconvenient truths into a partisan lie in our mind.

And this isn't new. People have been making a career lying for centuries. As far as Facebook, they aren't selling lies or truth, just eyeballs. And they don't care what those eyeballs are reading. Much like eBay doesn't care about pirated media as long as they get their cut. Profit for profit sake is the mantra. America's democracy has been hampered by this, but the truth is, our downfall started when Nixon said they needed to embrace racism in the South. And that happened a long time before social media.

Do you realize that it can't continue like that?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Are you sure this is how it will happen, by some external forces? Instead of via bean counters who decide that 1% growth is more important than facts/truth?

People keep saying this and it isn't how the human brain is wired. Humans say they care about the truth (it is so cute when Trump supporters say it, especially relative to news media), but what they really want is to be right. Our brains are wired to spin inconvenient truths into a partisan lie in our mind.

And this isn't new. People have been making a career lying for centuries. As far as Facebook, they aren't selling lies or truth, just eyeballs. And they don't care what those eyeballs are reading. Much like eBay doesn't care about pirated media as long as they get their cut. Profit for profit sake is the mantra. America's democracy has been hampered by this, but the truth is, our downfall started when Nixon said they needed to embrace racism in the South. And that happened a long time before social media.

Do you realize that it can't continue like that?

It has so far. It seems to come in cycles. The Spanish American War was instigated by media manipulation, and that was in the very late 19th century.. Strom Thurmond ran a Presidential Campaign exclusively on segregation in 1948 and won electoral votes by huge margins in those states, in Mississippi by dictator level margins!

Admittedly, the US is a unique low at this point, having a large percentage of Americans supporting a man that tried to overthrow our election results. But let's be honest, that wasn't social media. Trump embraced social media, but AM Radio (since early 1980s) and Cable news (since early 2000s) were creating this movement. And yes, that too was about money. And I suppose that is also a third cousin of Big Business's "Under God" maneuver to prevent socialism from making too large of gains in the US to help the American people but choke off some profit.

 

[barbos]

Do you realize that it can't continue like that?

It has so far. It seems to come in cycles. The Spanish American War was instigated by media manipulation, and that was in the very late 19th century.. Strom Thurmond ran a Presidential Campaign exclusively on segregation in 1948 and won electoral votes by huge margins in those states, in Mississippi by dictator level margins!

Admittedly, the US is a unique low at this point, having a large percentage of Americans supporting a man that tried to overthrow our election results. But let's be honest, that wasn't social media. Trump embraced social media, but AM Radio (since early 1980s) and Cable news (since early 2000s) were creating this movement. And yes, that too was about money. And I suppose that is also a third cousin of Big Business's "Under God" maneuver to prevent socialism from making too large of gains in the US to help the American people but choke off some profit.

So benchmark is 19th century? I don't think this Planet can survive 19 century capitalism anymore.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Do you realize that it can't continue like that?

It has so far. It seems to come in cycles. The Spanish American War was instigated by media manipulation, and that was in the very late 19th century.. Strom Thurmond ran a Presidential Campaign exclusively on segregation in 1948 and won electoral votes by huge margins in those states, in Mississippi by dictator level margins!

Admittedly, the US is a unique low at this point, having a large percentage of Americans supporting a man that tried to overthrow our election results. But let's be honest, that wasn't social media. Trump embraced social media, but AM Radio (since early 1980s) and Cable news (since early 2000s) were creating this movement. And yes, that too was about money. And I suppose that is also a third cousin of Big Business's "Under God" maneuver to prevent socialism from making too large of gains in the US to help the American people but choke off some profit.

So benchmark is 19th century?

Well, the Civil War is a good benchmark for "low point" in our history.

I don't think this Planet can survive 19 century capitalism anymore.

Well, the US capitalism system isn't remotely 19th century anymore. Back in the days when Gould and Fisk tried to corner the gold market during the Grant Administration.

 

[barbos]

So benchmark is 19th century?

Well, the Civil War is a good benchmark for "low point" in our history.

Exactly, as long it's not a full blown Civil War, you are doing great.

I don't think this Planet can survive 19 century capitalism anymore.

Well, the US capitalism system isn't remotely 19th century anymore. Back in the days when Gould and Fisk tried to corner the gold market during the Grant Administration.

You are gonna kill this planet.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Exactly, as long it's not a full blown Civil War, you are doing great.

I did say we were in a unique low point. I think our democracy is being overstressed at the seams and tearing. I've mentioned that plenty of times. But I have an issue with people blaming capitalism and social media for inciting this movement, when it has largely been fomented by partisan intolerance and bigotry, spurred on for decades by right-wing media.

You are gonna kill this planet.

I assure you, the US Government won't let me.

 

[Swammerdami]

Inspired by RussiaGate which is really facebookGate, which itself is CapitalismGate.

Zuckerberg saw that he can profit more by allowing dissemination of lies and crap, and he did.
Same story with FoxNews, their profits depend on lies their viewers like to hear.
OAN, same story, apparently AT&T invested in that. This is all about money. Democracy be damned.

I predict that as the authoritarian regimes continue to march forward and grow and expand (China and Russia et all): some day we will miss the days of capitalism/democracy.

I wonder why some people lump democracy and capitalism together. When free democratic elections are held, many countries turn AWAY from capitalism and toward socialism.

If "capitalism" refers to the ownership of property by non-state agents, then most countries today are capitalist. Russian ownership is dominated by oligarchs mostly allied with the Putin Gang. China has also encouraged private property acquisition to speed economic growth. Alternative futures are less about choosing between capitalism and socialism, and more about what form the capitalism will take.

Modern capitalism involves heavy aggregation of power: monopolies and cartels. In fascist countries, the government corruptly allies itself with business cartels. (Fascist countries may pay lip service to labor unions as an aggregation of power, but Hitler and Mussolini both mandated membership solely in government-operated labor unions, which is little better than outlawing labor unions.)

The United States, if Republican agenda is allowed to prevail, will follow a fascist model. Labor unions have already been eviscerated and, due to perverse financializations and lack of regulation, cartels already have great corrupt power even under Democratic governance. When the GOP regains control, the U.S. will lurch more strongly toward a fascist model, both on economic and social issues.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Inspired by RussiaGate which is really facebookGate, which itself is CapitalismGate.

Zuckerberg saw that he can profit more by allowing dissemination of lies and crap, and he did.
Same story with FoxNews, their profits depend on lies their viewers like to hear.
OAN, same story, apparently AT&T invested in that. This is all about money. Democracy be damned.

I predict that as the authoritarian regimes continue to march forward and grow and expand (China and Russia et all): some day we will miss the days of capitalism/democracy.

I wonder why some people lump democracy and capitalism together. When free democratic elections are held, many countries turn AWAY from capitalism and toward socialism.

If "capitalism" refers to the ownership of property by non-state agents, then most countries today are capitalist. Russian ownership is dominated by oligarchs mostly allied with the Putin Gang. China has also encouraged private property acquisition to speed economic growth. Alternative futures are less about choosing between capitalism and socialism, and more about what form the capitalism will take.

Modern capitalism involves heavy aggregation of power: monopolies and cartels. In fascist countries, the government corruptly allies itself with business cartels. (Fascist countries may pay lip service to labor unions as an aggregation of power, but Hitler and Mussolini both mandated membership solely in government-operated labor unions, which is little better than outlawing labor unions.)

The United States, if Republican agenda is allowed to prevail, will follow a fascist model. Labor unions have already been eviscerated and, due to perverse financializations and lack of regulation, cartels already have great corrupt power even under Democratic governance. When the GOP regains control, the U.S. will lurch more strongly toward a fascist model, both on economic and social issues.

Which country has freely turned towards socialism?

 

[Swammerdami]

Which country has freely turned towards socialism?

Cuba, and Iran under Mossadegh, just off the top of my head. Some Western European countries moved toward socialism some decades ago.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Which country has freely turned towards socialism?

Cuba, and Iran under Mossadegh, just off the top of my head. Some Western European countries moved toward socialism some decades ago.

Oh crap, I forgot that we use the conservative definition of socialism on this forum! I'd rather not have a derail in this thread about how to define capitalism. Although if you wanted to start a new thread, would be happy to join you. The western European countries' trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit. BTW: I haven't studied the situation in Cuba and Mossadegh.

I'll rephrase my statement to stay in this thread, I don't see many capitalist countries freely turning towards authoritarian rulers. Trump is trying to break this trend IMO!

 

[barbos]

The United States, if Republican agenda is allowed to prevail, will follow a fascist model.

Do they still have an agenda? I mean other than get elected by any means necessary and receive government salary and pension.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Which country has freely turned towards socialism?

Cuba, and Iran under Mossadegh, just off the top of my head. Some Western European countries moved toward socialism some decades ago.

Social Security, minimum wage, maternity leave, disability, etc...

And the US had public education centuries before Karl Marx.

 

[Swammerdami]

Which country has freely turned towards socialism?

Cuba, and Iran under Mossadegh, just off the top of my head. Some Western European countries moved toward socialism some decades ago.

Oh crap, I forgot that we use the conservative definition of socialism on this forum!

I think our semantic confusion is less about "socialism" than about "turn toward." In the mid-20th century, Britain, for example, nationalized coal mining and health care. Does that constitute, if not "socialism", then at least a "turn toward socialism"?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Which country has freely turned towards socialism?

Cuba, and Iran under Mossadegh, just off the top of my head. Some Western European countries moved toward socialism some decades ago.

Social Security, minimum wage, maternity leave, disability, etc...

And the US had public education centuries before Karl Marx.

SSN, minimum wage, maturity leave are not trade or industry. They are more increasing the safety net. I don't believe that there has ever been a capitalist country that didn't have some kind of safety net. The size and effectiveness of the safety net of course greatly varies