CapitalismGate

[Harry Bosch]

Oh crap, I forgot that we use the conservative definition of socialism on this forum!

I think our semantic confusion is less about "socialism" than about "turn toward." In the mid-20th century, Britain, for example, nationalized coal mining and health care. Does that constitute, if not "socialism", then at least a "turn toward socialism"?

That's a really good point. Sure, I'm open to what you are saying here. I mean that I would say that coal mining and health care are somewhat special. A true capitalist system requires a multiple of factors, one being competition. England nationalized coal mining in WW2 because coal constituted 90% of England's energy. They couldn't survive a strike or problems in the supply chain. I'd say the same about health care. I think that health care is failing when it isn't nationalized because there isn't sufficient competition. I live in a large city (at least large for the west!); and there is only one hospital. Having said all that, I agree that nationalizing coal production and health care is a "turn towards socialism".

 

[Swammerdami]

I just read this article on Newsweek and thought of this thread. We've been using 19th- and 20th-century paradigms to think about future economic struggles. But in fact a small number of companies control Internet content: Those companies and their owners will dictate the future.

 

[Bomb#20]

Which country has freely turned towards socialism?

Czechoslovakia. Didn't work out so well for them -- turns out it's easier to vote them in than vote them out.

 

[Bomb#20]

So everybody can do whatever they want? Drugs, drunk driving, lying on the news. Everybody has a choice.
It does not bother you that FoxNews and AON business model was "There are bunch of people who wants to hear certain lies and we will provide them with that"? From the get-go that was their business model. Facebook slowly morphed to that, or rather they cover all bases - everybody gets what they want, we have no leanings.

There's a popular impression that the point of free speech is to let the truth win in the marketplace of ideas. But that's not what free speech is for. We have free speech because government can't be trusted to honestly determine who is and who isn't lying on the news.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Which country has freely turned towards socialism?

Czechoslovakia. Didn't work out so well for them -- turns out it's easier to vote them in than vote them out.

Good point. Yes, we may be heading in the same direction if we reelect Trump in 2024.

 

[Rhea]

I just read this article on Newsweek and thought of this thread. We've been using 19th- and 20th-century paradigms to think about future economic struggles. But in fact a small number of companies control Internet content: Those companies and their owners will dictate the future.

And we ignore this at our peril.

 

[none]

Capitalism works, when did Smith die?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Inspired by RussiaGate which is really facebookGate, which itself is CapitalismGate.

Zuckerberg saw that he can profit more by allowing dissemination of lies and crap, and he did.
Same story with FoxNews, their profits depend on lies their viewers like to hear.
OAN, same story, apparently AT&T invested in that. This is all about money. Democracy be damned.

I disagree slightly. I think it's all about power....but money is a means to power. Power gets you everything even if money doesn't exist. There's political power they are also trying to maintain...etc...etc.

 

[jonatha]

I don't believe that there has ever been a capitalist country that didn't have some kind of safety net.

All of them prior to Bismarck...

 

[barbos]

Inspired by RussiaGate which is really facebookGate, which itself is CapitalismGate.

Zuckerberg saw that he can profit more by allowing dissemination of lies and crap, and he did.
Same story with FoxNews, their profits depend on lies their viewers like to hear.
OAN, same story, apparently AT&T invested in that. This is all about money. Democracy be damned.

I disagree slightly. I think it's all about power....but money is a means to power. Power gets you everything even if money doesn't exist. There's political power they are also trying to maintain...etc...etc.

In capitalism money=power. So you are not disagreeing at all.
Do zuckerbergs understand that ultimately hey are undermining the system which made them obscenely rich/powerful. I mean, there is a chance of fascism and I doubt they would like it very much.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Inspired by RussiaGate which is really facebookGate, which itself is CapitalismGate.

Zuckerberg saw that he can profit more by allowing dissemination of lies and crap, and he did.
Same story with FoxNews, their profits depend on lies their viewers like to hear.
OAN, same story, apparently AT&T invested in that. This is all about money. Democracy be damned.

I disagree slightly. I think it's all about power....but money is a means to power. Power gets you everything even if money doesn't exist. There's political power they are also trying to maintain...etc...etc.

Well, if power is your issue, you should be an even greater advocate for capitalism! A capitalist society can reduce Zuckerberg's power through greater taxation, enforcement of anti-trust practices, limiting political donations, and etc. But if you eliminate capitalism, then the guys at the top control their companies and all the guns. Not a good combo.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Inspired by RussiaGate which is really facebookGate, which itself is CapitalismGate.

Zuckerberg saw that he can profit more by allowing dissemination of lies and crap, and he did.
Same story with FoxNews, their profits depend on lies their viewers like to hear.
OAN, same story, apparently AT&T invested in that. This is all about money. Democracy be damned.

I disagree slightly. I think it's all about power....but money is a means to power. Power gets you everything even if money doesn't exist. There's political power they are also trying to maintain...etc...etc.

Well, if power is your issue, you should be an even greater advocate for capitalism! A capitalist society can reduce Zuckerberg's power through greater taxation, enforcement of anti-trust practices, limiting political donations, and etc. But if you eliminate capitalism, then the guys at the top control their companies and all the guns. Not a good combo.

Money isn't a completely evil thing, it's neutral, like a hammer is neutral. You can use it to build a house or murder someone. Money is empowerment and so it can be used to increase your opportunity and so a system where you work hard and become more empowered is generally good. What I think some people do not understand is that when people have too much power, there are people who have too little power and that isn't really a truly free society. Progressive taxation, anti-trust, limiting political donations are features that exist outside capitalism and are not dependent upon its existence. In fact, they are kind of a political reaction to the ills of unfettered capitalism, to the limitless power of the moneyed class and the victims it leaves behind. Power is indeed a problem inherent to capitalism and so something extrinsic/external has to be brought in to fix things. The result has been decent for me personally, but not for others, and it is a work in progress.

 

[barbos]

Inspired by RussiaGate which is really facebookGate, which itself is CapitalismGate.

Zuckerberg saw that he can profit more by allowing dissemination of lies and crap, and he did.
Same story with FoxNews, their profits depend on lies their viewers like to hear.
OAN, same story, apparently AT&T invested in that. This is all about money. Democracy be damned.

I disagree slightly. I think it's all about power....but money is a means to power. Power gets you everything even if money doesn't exist. There's political power they are also trying to maintain...etc...etc.

Well, if power is your issue, you should be an even greater advocate for capitalism! A capitalist society can reduce Zuckerberg's power through greater taxation, enforcement of anti-trust practices, limiting political donations, and etc. But if you eliminate capitalism, then the guys at the top control their companies and all the guns. Not a good combo.

Nobody suggested to get rid of capitalism yet. But one has to wonder, looking at the China which seems to be taking climate change seriously and Capitalism (US) which is not.