Cardinal George Pell, convicted paedophile

[DrZoidberg]

Doesn't their allegiance to the Church and their fellow priests ignore the wishes of God as they believe them to be? After all, they were once quite prepared to burn people for heresy or witchcraft...being quite prepared to act on the behalf of God and not leave these 'onerous' tasks to God in the afterlife?

Nah, it all ties together. If god didn't want the suspected heretic to be tortured to death, then he wouldn't have put the suspicion into the mind of the inquisitor. And in the unlikely event that the suspect was blameless, he attained eternal paradise, so no harm done.

Whereas if a priest is guilty, but through an absence of suitable action on the part of his colleagues, he gets away with it, then god will fix it all up once he dies, so no harm done.

Belief in an all powerful god permits the justification of any atrocity. That's its power and its evil.

In Christian thought, your intentions matter more than the outcome. So if you're compelled to do things but trying really hard not to, that can give you a free pass. You just need to try really really hard and be very very ashamed.

It comes from Zoroastrianism. But is a perversion of Zoroastrian thought. In Zoroastrian the prayer is "Good intentions, leads to good thoughts, leads to good deeds". In Zoroastrianism good just means whatever is desirable, practical or most helpful to yourself, your family and your community. It's not good in the childish sense, as it is used in Christianity.

Christianity is fundamentally a simplistic (and childish) version or Zoroastrianism blended with Paganism. The goal of the Zoroastrian prayer is to lead to deeds that help the community. Unless the good intention is somehow connected to the practical outcome it's a pointless exercise. Which is a fundamental flaw in Christian thought IMHO. And which has led paedophile abuse of children to keep going for so long.

My main gripe with Christianity and Christian thought is that it's one of the most shallow and least sophisticated theologies ever to have been devised. It annoys me that something that stupid has gotten the impact, reach and influence it has. I have the same gripe with Islam. The other equally shallow and stupid theology that is so dominant in the world. I like religion. I just find it sad that Christianity was allowed to displace paganism. A very deep and sophisticated theology and religion. Just imagine the religious art and temples if they'd kept going... I digress. It's sad anyway

 

[DBT]

Doesn't their allegiance to the Church and their fellow priests ignore the wishes of God as they believe them to be? After all, they were once quite prepared to burn people for heresy or witchcraft...being quite prepared to act on the behalf of God and not leave these 'onerous' tasks to God in the afterlife?

Nah, it all ties together. If god didn't want the suspected heretic to be tortured to death, then he wouldn't have put the suspicion into the mind of the inquisitor. And in the unlikely event that the suspect was blameless, he attained eternal paradise, so no harm done.

Whereas if a priest is guilty, but through an absence of suitable action on the part of his colleagues, he gets away with it, then god will fix it all up once he dies, so no harm done.

Belief in an all powerful god permits the justification of any atrocity. That's its power and its evil.

Sounds about right. That's faith for you. Gotta love it.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

They're not allowed to rat eachother out. If somebody confesses a sin to them the priest has made a vow of silence not to tell anyone. The very nature of the Catholic church has created this problem. Let's call it a loophole abusers can exploit.

Anyhoo... So it's not strange they've been so good at keeping a lid on it.

You missed the sound of the jet that just passed over your head.

I think confessions are actually a good thing about the Catholic church. As any therapist can tell you. When we've done something bad our natural inclinations is to outright deny it. To ourselves. The first step to recovery is just admitting it. It's often easier to admit it together with others, than doing the work ourselves. But we need to do it to somebody we can trust. That's where the vow of silence comes in. I think it's a really smart system. It's only becomes a problem when priests confess to each other about problems in the church. As it guarantees the problem not being fixed, since that would break the vow of silence.

But there's an obvious solution to the problem. Catholic priests aren't allowed to confess to each other. Or confess to priests of some other religion.

So you are saying that the only way priests found out about an abusive priest was by a one-on-one confession? Not likely.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I think confessions are actually a good thing about the Catholic church. As any therapist can tell you. When we've done something bad our natural inclinations is to outright deny it. To ourselves. The first step to recovery is just admitting it. It's often easier to admit it together with others, than doing the work ourselves. But we need to do it to somebody we can trust. That's where the vow of silence comes in. I think it's a really smart system. It's only becomes a problem when priests confess to each other about problems in the church. As it guarantees the problem not being fixed, since that would break the vow of silence.

But there's an obvious solution to the problem. Catholic priests aren't allowed to confess to each other. Or confess to priests of some other religion.

So you are saying that the only way priests found out about an abusive priest was by a one-on-one confession? Not likely.

Hmm... I have no data on this what so ever. So I don't have an opinion on how likely it is.

But isn't anything you confess to a priest a "confession"? In that case, if they were found out and challenged on it, confessed, they'd automatically be safe. According to the rules. Just speculating here. But it is well established that they did care more about the image of the Catholic church, than protecting children. That was the job description of the old pope, Benedict XVI. Before he became a pope. Which is the reason he lost his job.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

On the topic of rapey priests, this is quite funny:

https://www.joemygod.com/2019/03/brooklyn-diocese-demands-apology-for-snl-joke/

So, this diocese gets all offended by a comedian comparing the Church to R Kelly, while that specific diocese has over 100 priests credibly accused of sexually abusing minors. It's like Donald Trump getting offended by someone comparing him to Jessica Simpson's dad.

 

[bilby]

Interesting article from The Tasmanian on the links between the conservative political establishment and the conservative religious establishment - all horrified by the very idea that the law might apply equally to them.

https://tasmaniantimes.com/2019/03/pell-2/

 

[Lion IRC]

...there has never been a case where a priest ratted out his fellow priest for this kind of behavior.

That's not true.
In the McCarrick case, alone, it was documented that several priests had reported him over the years.

 

[bigfield]

...there has never been a case where a priest ratted out his fellow priest for this kind of behavior.

That's not true.
In the McCarrick case, alone, it was documented that several priests had reported him over the years.

Not to the police.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

...there has never been a case where a priest ratted out his fellow priest for this kind of behavior.

That's not true.
In the McCarrick case, alone, it was documented that several priests had reported him over the years.

By "report", it's meant that they called the fucking police, not that they sent an internal memo.

Mentioning the abuse to the people in charge of covering up the abuse and then threatening to forward the matter to some other people in charge of covering up the abuse at some point over the next several years doesn't count as reporting the abuse.

 

[Lion IRC]

Interesting article from The Tasmanian on the links between the conservative political establishment and the conservative religious establishment - all horrified by the very idea that the law might apply equally to them.

https://tasmaniantimes.com/2019/03/pell-2/

That 'article' is a joke.

The Voices In My Head
By Peter Henning

 

[bilby]

Interesting article from The Tasmanian on the links between the conservative political establishment and the conservative religious establishment - all horrified by the very idea that the law might apply equally to them.

https://tasmaniantimes.com/2019/03/pell-2/

That 'article' is a joke.

The Voices In My Head
By Peter Henning

Your sense of humour is seriously worrying.

Nobody else finds the rape of children funny.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

...there has never been a case where a priest ratted out his fellow priest for this kind of behavior.

That's not true.
In the McCarrick case, alone, it was documented that several priests had reported him over the years.

By "report", it's meant that they called the fucking police, not that they sent an internal memo.

Mentioning the abuse to the people in charge of covering up the abuse and then threatening to forward the matter to some other people in charge of covering up the abuse at some point over the next several years doesn't count as reporting the abuse.

The word is Cardinal Pedo gets six years. Not nearly enough if I were one of the parents.

 

[bigfield]

By "report", it's meant that they called the fucking police, not that they sent an internal memo.

Mentioning the abuse to the people in charge of covering up the abuse and then threatening to forward the matter to some other people in charge of covering up the abuse at some point over the next several years doesn't count as reporting the abuse.

The word is Cardinal Pedo gets six years. Not nearly enough if I were one of the parents.

3 years 8 months is the minimum he's required to serve before he's eligible for parole.

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...y-four-years-in-jail-for-child-sexual-assault

 

[The Colourful Jester]

Any news on his big day today?

 

[The Colourful Jester]

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...ourt-decision-appeal-latest-verdict-live-news

He's out.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Ruling summary:

https://www.hcourt.gov.au/assets/publications/judgment-summaries/2020/hca-12-2020-04-07.pdf

I'm not sure where to find the full ruling, but in a nutshell, the court held unanimously that the jury had not made a rational assessment of the evidence presented to them, and on a rational assessment of the evidence, there was reasonable doubt.

 

[DBT]

Amazing.

 

[bigfield]

“Our client is currently in shock,” she said. “He is struggling to comprehend the decision by the High Court of Australia. He says he no longer has faith in our country’s criminal justice system.

Can't blame him. Pell was found guilty by a jury trial, the conviction was upheld 2-1 by the Victorian Court of Appeal, and then overturned by the High Court of Australia. From the victim's point of view, the justice system doesn't work.

Here's the full text of the judgement: http://eresources.hcourt.gov.au/downloadPdf/2020/HCA/12

The High Court found that the jury didn't give proper weight to the evidence that Pell's routine put him on the steps of the Cathedral, and that Pell was supposed to be accompanied while robed. Witness A (one of the victims) was a believable witness, but that doesn't mean the jury was right to dismiss evidence to the contrary.

The prosecution conceded that the offences alleged in the first incident could not have been committed if, following Mass, the applicant had stood on the Cathedral steps greeting congregants for ten minutes. Their Honours' conclusion that it was reasonably possible that the applicant had not adhered to his practice on the date of the first incident necessarily carried with it acceptance that it was reasonably possible that he had.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Can't blame him. Pell was found guilty by a jury trial, the conviction was upheld 2-1 by the Victorian Court of Appeal, and then overturned by the High Court of Australia. From the victim's point of view, the justice system doesn't work.

The same thing happened in Israel with Ivan the Terrible (Ivan Demjanjuk). Witness testimony has its limitations.

 

[Lion IRC]

The unanimous decision of the full bench of the High Court effectively rules that the jury failed to give adequate weight to the exculpatory evidence provided by defence. That evidence demonstrates that the claims of Pell’s accuser are most likely either;

Deliberately fabricated falsehoods
Sincerely mistaken honest beliefs
Mental delusion/fantasy