Carl Sagan and ancient aliens

[skepticalbip]

That's a shame. Speculating on possibilities is rather an enjoyable exercise if the "true believers" can be convinced to lighten up and realize that they don't really KNOW.

 

[braces_for_impact]

I see this quite a lot with regards to such questions. People seem to think absolute certainty is required to be skeptical of a position. It does not.

 

[James Brown]

I see this quite a lot with regards to such questions. People seem to think absolute certainty is required to be skeptical of a position. It does not.

"I don't know what's causing the noises in your attic, but I don't believe that it's a ghost."

 

[skepticalbip]

I am a big fan of irony. It is my favorite form of humor. Maybe that is why I enjoy so much those who honestly believe the fact that something can't be explained means that they know the true explanation for it and will not tolerate anyone disagreeing. An added bonus is that their explanation is usually the most improbable of possibilities.

 

[bilby]

It seems odd to me that aliens with the ability not only to cut stone with great precision, but also to travel interstellar distances to do so, would not have invented mortar.

Anyone who has studied human manufacturing methodologies would be aware that as technology improves, the need for high tolerances and skilled craftsmanship gives way to technological solutions (such as mortar) that allow low tolerances in component manufacture. Precision machining is reserved for those few situations where it is essential. For simple stuff like building buildings, there's mortar, mastic, gaskets, seals and sealants to fill any gaps chinks or cracks. It's a LOT cheaper to throw up a building using roughly cut stone or roughly cast bricks, held together with mortar, than it is to precision cut every stone so that they seal perfectly without it. Such construction is strictly for people who have limited technology.

But lots of time to learn how to cut stone.

No level of precision should be a surprise from a master craftsman - few still exist, but once upon a hundred or so years ago, they were everywhere. And the stuff they made looks impossibly precise to an ordinary person who hasn't spent their entire life learning the craft.

 

[James Brown]

The Non-Mystery of Pumapunku

We do not claim to know how the heavy lifting and exquisite masonry was accomplished at Pumapunku, but that's a far cry from saying we believe the Tiwanaku were incapable of it. We simply don't have a record of what tools and techniques they used. All around the world are examples of stonemasonry from the period that is equally impressive. The Greek Parthenon, for example, was built a thousand years before Pumapunku, and yet nobody invokes aliens as the only explanation for its great beauty and decorative detailing that more than rivals Pumapunku's angles and cuts. At about the same time, the Persians constructed Persepolis with its superlative Palace of Darius, featuring details that are highly comparable to Pumapunku. Stonemasons in India cut the Udayagiri Caves with megalithic doorways that are very similar to those in Pumapunku. The Tiwanaku did magnificent work, but by no means was it inexplicably superior to what can be found throughout the ancient world. It is unnecessary to invoke aliens to explain the structures.

 

[Peez]

It seems odd to me that aliens with the ability not only to cut stone with great precision, but also to travel interstellar distances to do so, would not have invented mortar.

Anyone who has studied human manufacturing methodologies would be aware that as technology improves, the need for high tolerances and skilled craftsmanship gives way to technological solutions (such as mortar) that allow low tolerances in component manufacture. Precision machining is reserved for those few situations where it is essential. For simple stuff like building buildings, there's mortar, mastic, gaskets, seals and sealants to fill any gaps chinks or cracks. It's a LOT cheaper to throw up a building using roughly cut stone or roughly cast bricks, held together with mortar, than it is to precision cut every stone so that they seal perfectly without it. Such construction is strictly for people who have limited technology.

But lots of time to learn how to cut stone.

No level of precision should be a surprise from a master craftsman - few still exist, but once upon a hundred or so years ago, they were everywhere. And the stuff they made looks impossibly precise to an ordinary person who hasn't spent their entire life learning the craft.

I also marvel at the contempt in which some people seem to hold our ancestors. Humans living a few thousand years ago were not stupid, and although they had not yet developed many of the technologies we have today, they had developed many technologies that we have since lost simply because they were replaced by others.

Anyhow, the hypocrisy here of someone stating

The ancient peoples in Bolivia could not have done the kind of high-tech work that was obviously done on the stones at Puma-punku. Why not just accept that and find it fascinating than argue against it?

and then

Who's being absolutely sure? Fairly sure, yeah, but not absolutely sure. Please be careful of your language, and your accusations.

it notable, also

What I'll never understand is the outright hostility that some people show towards ANY thinking that is not in conformity with the "accepted" dogmas of science.

and later

I'm outta this silly conversation, and unsubbing from the thread.

This reminds me of a common creationist ploy: 'I am not a creationist, but I see this problem with evolution that nobody can explain...'

Peez

 

[skepticalbip]

It seems odd to me that aliens with the ability not only to cut stone with great precision, but also to travel interstellar distances to do so, would not have invented mortar.
......snip.......

What could be more reasonable than a starship full of alien master stone masons cruising the galaxy? Their purpose obviously would be to drop in on planets with "primitive" but developing civilizations to do a bit of skilled stone work then police up all their high tech tools, litter, and garbage and return to their star system, leaving no trace of their having been there but their master craftsmanship, to have a good laugh over beers at how the primitives will try to explain it all.

 

[bilby]

It's notable that, as new technologies become available, the degree of effort and precision needed for the old ones drops away.

Buy Phil Harding a beer, and he will tell you all about flint-knapping*; A craft that is still in use today. The best and most sophisticated flint tools are from the Neolithic - they show a steady improvement of skill and craftsmanship from their Palaeolithic predecessors. But Bronze Age flints are much less sophisticated, and Iron Age ones less so again. The Romans used flint blades for agricultural machines, but these are incredibly crude compared to the knapping from earlier ages.

The reason is simple - for the most important applications, people use the latest technology (expensive but excellent); And the old technology is relegated to jobs of less importance (cheap but good enough).

It's really not surprising to find higher quality craftsmanship as you look further back in time.









*Buy him two, and you won't be able to stop him from telling you about flint-knapping

 

[braces_for_impact]

I'm with Peez on this, people constantly underestimate our ancestors, mostly because of simple lack of imagination if you ask me.

 

[skepticalbip]

I'm with Peez on this, people constantly underestimate our ancestors, mostly because of simple lack of imagination if you ask me.

I think that it is probably the old confusion of general and specific. While it is true that humanity as a whole progressively increases in abilities to control the environment this does not mean that specific individuals would have more ability than their distant ancestors. What I see is people apparently believing that since they personally can't do or understand something then it must be far beyond the abilities of ancient peoples.

Personally, I think people as individuals are becoming less and less capable of even surviving without a vast network of people doing their little pigeon hole part. Our ancestors were generalists capable of doing many things well while we have become specialists, only able to handle our specific and limited tasks. Even finding food is beyond many except in a restaurant or grocery store provided by a network of people filling their specific niches.

 

[Peez]

I'm with Peez on this, people constantly underestimate our ancestors, mostly because of simple lack of imagination if you ask me.

I think that it is probably the old confusion of general and specific. While it is true that humanity as a whole progressively increases in abilities to control the environment this does not mean that specific individuals would have more ability than their distant ancestors. What I see is people apparently believing that since they personally can't do or understand something then it must be far beyond the abilities of ancient peoples.

Personally, I think people as individuals are becoming less and less capable of even surviving without a vast network of people doing their little pigeon hole part. Our ancestors were generalists capable of doing many things well while we have become specialists, only able to handle our specific and limited tasks. Even finding food is beyond many except in a restaurant or grocery store provided by a network of people filling their specific niches.

That is a fair point, but there were skills that have been lost. Craftsmen were generally illiterate, and in some cases guilds would have had a vested interest in preventing wide dissemination of certain skills. As new technologies became available and methods changed, old skills were lost and there were often no detailed records. Even recent skills are in danger, how many people still practice calligraphy? Perhaps people will one day wonder how draftsmen (draftspeople?) ever produced detailed and precise plans without computers.

Peez

 

[lpetrich]

Some people keep some of these skills alive as hobbies: The hobby of Blacksmithing, The Beginner's Essential Guide to Wood Carving & Whittling -, 10 Reasons Tapestry Weaving Should Be Your New Hobby | Mirrix Tapestry & Bead Looms, horse riding, do-it-yourself beer brewing and winemaking, ...

 

[steve_bank]

I member an old video where Sagan claimed there were Venusians on Venus and proclaimed to describe what they looked like. AE had his own idiosyncrasies as did Feynman. Hawkins made a few strange proclamations.

Being rational and objective in science does not equate to a Spock like emotionless logic driven life. Some of the best engineers I worked with were Creationists'. We all compartmentalize.

 

[steve_bank]

I'm with Peez on this, people constantly underestimate our ancestors, mostly because of simple lack of imagination if you ask me.

I think that it is probably the old confusion of general and specific. While it is true that humanity as a whole progressively increases in abilities to control the environment this does not mean that specific individuals would have more ability than their distant ancestors. What I see is people apparently believing that since they personally can't do or understand something then it must be far beyond the abilities of ancient peoples.

Personally, I think people as individuals are becoming less and less capable of even surviving without a vast network of people doing their little pigeon hole part. Our ancestors were generalists capable of doing many things well while we have become specialists, only able to handle our specific and limited tasks. Even finding food is beyond many except in a restaurant or grocery store provided by a network of people filling their specific niches.

Our brains probably have not changed much in 4000 years. Ancient Greeks hypothesized all life began in the sea and made rough calculations of Earth' circumference. They imagined fundamental individual units of matter, today the atom.
Articulate spec and language along with reading and writing.

Technology has removed us from evolution, mutations are no longer selected by the environment. If a major population reduction and systems failure occurs then it will be back to natural selection. Ancient Zog figured out how to control fire. Arrows and eventually spin stabilization with feathers were developed without aerodynamics. Eskimos developed articulated kayaks that smoothed out wave vibration. Many would die in a global catastrophic but but humans would reinvent themselves.

 

[bilby]

I member an old video where Sagan claimed there were Venusians on Venus and proclaimed to describe what they looked like. AE had his own idiosyncrasies as did Feynman. Hawkins made a few strange proclamations.

Being rational and objective in science does not equate to a Spock like emotionless logic driven life. Some of the best engineers I worked with were Creationists'. We all compartmentalize.

Engineers seem to be far more inclined to extreme religious beliefs and whackadoodle conspiracy theories than most people with a technicological education. They are hugely over represented amongst suicide bombers.

Nobody's really sure why, although there are a number of plausible sounding hypotheses.

 

[bilby]

I'm with Peez on this, people constantly underestimate our ancestors, mostly because of simple lack of imagination if you ask me.

I think that it is probably the old confusion of general and specific. While it is true that humanity as a whole progressively increases in abilities to control the environment this does not mean that specific individuals would have more ability than their distant ancestors. What I see is people apparently believing that since they personally can't do or understand something then it must be far beyond the abilities of ancient peoples.

Personally, I think people as individuals are becoming less and less capable of even surviving without a vast network of people doing their little pigeon hole part. Our ancestors were generalists capable of doing many things well while we have become specialists, only able to handle our specific and limited tasks. Even finding food is beyond many except in a restaurant or grocery store provided by a network of people filling their specific niches.

Our brains probably have not changed much in 4000 years. Ancient Greeks hypothesized all life began in the sea and made rough calculations of Earth' circumference. They imagined fundamental individual units of matter, today the atom.
Articulate spec and language along with reading and writing.

Technology has removed us from evolution, mutations are no longer selected by the environment. If a major population reduction and systems failure occurs then it will be back to natural selection. Ancient Zog figured out how to control fire. Arrows and eventually spin stabilization with feathers were developed without aerodynamics. Eskimos developed articulated kayaks that smoothed out wave vibration. Many would die in a global catastrophic but but humans would reinvent themselves.

Technology hasn't "removed us from evolution". Technology has just become a part of the environment to which we must fit or perish.

Young men who use their cars to kill themselves while trying to impress their peers are very effectively removing themselves from the gene pool. Given enough time, that might be a significant evolutionary pressure; Though it's far too early to say what the effect will be. Maybe future generations will have faster reflexes. Maybe they will be less inclined to take stupid risks. Maybe both - and maybe not.

While there are differential rates of reproductive success with a genetic component that contributes to the differences, evolution remains inevitable and unavoidable.

 

[lpetrich]

I member an old video where Sagan claimed there were Venusians on Venus and proclaimed to describe what they looked like.

Could you please try to track it down? It may take some searching, but I've found lots of video of his public appearances. Here is one of his earliest ones: Carl Sagan 1966 Interviewed about UFO's - YouTube

Engineers seem to be far more inclined to extreme religious beliefs and whackadoodle conspiracy theories than most people with a technicological education. They are hugely over represented amongst suicide bombers.

Nobody's really sure why, although there are a number of plausible sounding hypotheses.

That's the Salem hypothesis, after talkorigins.org Bruce Salem.

Lots of physics crackpottery is done by engineers:
Pathological Physics: Tales from "The Box" - YouTube
Pathological physics - slideshow

Among them are those who seem to be mentally ill, those who are naive, and those who are stubborn. The stubborn ones have the fanciest theories:

• Theories of everything
• Self-aggrandizement
• Lack of Disproof taken to be Proof
• Specious precision
• "Deriving" fundamental constants
• Convenient redefinitions

For some reason, a sizable fraction of physics crackpots are engineers, and not so many from the natural sciences.

Thus being much like creationists (Salem hypothesis), conspiracy theorists, apocalyptic cultists, cranks more generally.

Even though physics crackpots often cannot be reasoned with, their theories are still good collections of common misconceptions.

 

[steve_bank]

When you are the takeoff roll om a jet or driving across a bridge you better hope it wasn't designed by crackpot engineers.....I did some of my best work using crstal balls and Quija Boards. At Intel we had a weekly department séance.

The point is doing good science, or engineering, is not based on any belief religious or secular. Spock does not exist. Picturing scientists as bastions of rationality outside of the work is probably the result of seeing science as the counter to the supernatural and religion. The beauty of science and engineering is that it doesn't matter how you get results, only that you do.

All the muttering about reason and logic is nonsense. Case in point Sagan, Einstein....both had their irrational quirks as do most of us real human beings. For me I would not have made it outside of engineering. At least in my generation it was a refuge for us off center eccentrics...there were a few who thought I was bti crazy.

Thanks for starting my day with a great deep belly laugh.

 

[skepticalbip]

^ ^

It isn't just engineers. I worked closely with a physicist in the 1980s that absolutely could not accept relativity. I enjoyed bringing in articles every time any test verified some part of it and listening to him "explaining" why it was measurement error. Another had an obsession with Stonehenge that I never quite figured out. And then there was the father of physics, Newton... Although I see him as an extraordinary genius, he was really deep into some strange shit but then he lived in a time when strange shit was normal.