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Carter and Trump: What They May Have In Common?

J

James Madison

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Jimmy Carter froze immigration from the Muslim-majority nation of Iran after the 1979 hostage crisis.

Immediately after the U.S. Embassy in Tehran was overrun in 1979, Carter issued an executive order that all Iranian students in the U.S. had to report to immigration officials within thirty days. Out of a population of over 50,000, there were 15,000 Iranians who were ejected from the country.
Click to expand...
http://www.ijreview.com/2015/12/489202-remember-back-when-jimmy-carter-forbade-immigration-from-iran-and-expelled-and-immigrants-from-iran-and-expelled/?_ga=1.68360145.1777871268.1449683875

During the Iranian hostage crisis, Carter issued a number of orders to put pressure on Iran. Among these, Iranians were banned from entering the United States unless they oppose the Shiite Islamist regime or had a medical emergency.
Click to expand...
http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/261062/carter-banned-iranians-coming-us-during-hostage-daniel-greenfield

Any thoughts? I see some differences between Trump's suggestion of ban all Muslims and Carter's executive order.
 
James Madison said:
http://www.ijreview.com/2015/12/489202-remember-back-when-jimmy-carter-forbade-immigration-from-iran-and-expelled-and-immigrants-from-iran-and-expelled/?_ga=1.68360145.1777871268.1449683875

During the Iranian hostage crisis, Carter issued a number of orders to put pressure on Iran. Among these, Iranians were banned from entering the United States unless they oppose the Shiite Islamist regime or had a medical emergency.
Click to expand...
http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/261062/carter-banned-iranians-coming-us-during-hostage-daniel-greenfield

Any thoughts? I see some differences between Trump's suggestion of ban all Muslims and Carter's executive order.
Click to expand...

One was a country we were having political trouble with the other is a religion with US citizens.
 
Nice Squirrel said:
James Madison said:
http://www.ijreview.com/2015/12/489202-remember-back-when-jimmy-carter-forbade-immigration-from-iran-and-expelled-and-immigrants-from-iran-and-expelled/?_ga=1.68360145.1777871268.1449683875

http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/261062/carter-banned-iranians-coming-us-during-hostage-daniel-greenfield

Any thoughts? I see some differences between Trump's suggestion of ban all Muslims and Carter's executive order.
Click to expand...

One was a country we were having political trouble with the other is a religion with US citizens.
Click to expand...

Yeah I had the same notion and legally, I think you are correct from this point of view. Trump's proposal may violate the Establishment Clause, where the government's power is restricted in such a way that when they exercise their powers they must do so as to not violate the rights in the BOR or U.S. Constitution. There isn't any similar language in the BOR or the U.S. Constitution restricting federal government power on the basis of nationality.

I haven't been able to locate and read the exact language of Carter's order but some sources reported Carter restricted entry only for those Iranians living within Iran, but another source stated Carter's prohibition was on the basis they were Iranian (nationality) regardless of location.

Let's suppose the EO was on the basis of nationality, all Iranians, regardless of location. Likely lawful, for reason previously stated, but is this an act of discrimination we find more palatable than discrimination on the basis of religion? I want to say yes but in my gut I am inclined to say no. Maybe Carter was wrong to issue his EO.
 
James Madison said:
http://www.ijreview.com/2015/12/489202-remember-back-when-jimmy-carter-forbade-immigration-from-iran-and-expelled-and-immigrants-from-iran-and-expelled/?_ga=1.68360145.1777871268.1449683875

During the Iranian hostage crisis, Carter issued a number of orders to put pressure on Iran. Among these, Iranians were banned from entering the United States unless they oppose the Shiite Islamist regime or had a medical emergency.
Click to expand...
http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/261062/carter-banned-iranians-coming-us-during-hostage-daniel-greenfield

Any thoughts? I see some differences between Trump's suggestion of ban all Muslims and Carter's executive order.
Click to expand...
A big difference is that a passport of a visa identifies the nationality of the holder but there is no good way to identify the religion of someone.
 
Don't all nation states restrict the comings and goings of foreign nationals when those states are not at peace?

Did Carter do something out of the ordinary?
 
AthenaAwakened said:
Don't all nation states restrict the comings and goings of foreign nationals when those states are not at peace?

Did Carter do something out of the ordinary?
Click to expand...

Who knows?

I do remember at the time my uncle was working with students from Algeria.

Who were constantly being assaulted and harassed by Americans.
 
Jayjay said:
I thought you were going to say "malignant growth in his head".
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Carter has announced the cancer in his brain is gone. No word from Trump.
 
Nice Squirrel said:
James Madison said:
http://www.ijreview.com/2015/12/489202-remember-back-when-jimmy-carter-forbade-immigration-from-iran-and-expelled-and-immigrants-from-iran-and-expelled/?_ga=1.68360145.1777871268.1449683875

http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/261062/carter-banned-iranians-coming-us-during-hostage-daniel-greenfield

Any thoughts? I see some differences between Trump's suggestion of ban all Muslims and Carter's executive order.
Click to expand...

One was a country we were having political trouble with the other is a religion with US citizens.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Ejecting those of a nation that we were basically at war with is a reasonable act.
 
James Madison said:
Yeah I had the same notion and legally, I think you are correct from this point of view. Trump's proposal may violate the Establishment Clause, where the government's power is restricted in such a way that when they exercise their powers they must do so as to not violate the rights in the BOR or U.S. Constitution. There isn't any similar language in the BOR or the U.S. Constitution restricting federal government power on the basis of nationality.

I haven't been able to locate and read the exact language of Carter's order but some sources reported Carter restricted entry only for those Iranians living within Iran, but another source stated Carter's prohibition was on the basis they were Iranian (nationality) regardless of location.

Let's suppose the EO was on the basis of nationality, all Iranians, regardless of location. Likely lawful, for reason previously stated, but is this an act of discrimination we find more palatable than discrimination on the basis of religion? I want to say yes but in my gut I am inclined to say no. Maybe Carter was wrong to issue his EO.
Click to expand...

While I see some merit to your EC argument in the other Trump thread, I don't see it in the case of national origin. Quite apart from the fact the first amendment only addresses speech, press, and religion, there is a whole lot of other aspects that need considered.

Among the other issues in play are: executive authority over foreign relations, the related Plenary Doctrine, the rights (or lack of rights) to revoke the visas visiting foreign citizens of the (undeclared) enemy nation, etc.

From a purely non-legal and practical perspective, I am not sure why you want to say yes. Like it or not, the all the world's territory (except perhaps Antarctica) is under the sovereign authority of some state. Within each state are its community of members with loyalty and a duty to their sovereign's orders and their "peoples" safety and interests - that is both presumed and expected.

Those granted residency under another nations jurisdiction are doing so as guests of that other nation-state community. In times of declared conflict or war, it may be smart to boot the guest and tell him/her to go back to their own enemy community. The guest is not "of the people or the civis".

Of course, if the guest wishes to "switch sides" and transfer his/her membership, loyalty, and duties to protect his new community that may be a different matter.
 
Muslims are not at war with the US.

It is and has been the exact opposite for over a decade.

Two large scale invasions of Muslim countries with non-stop killing and torture of Muslims ever since.

How is this not seen?

From where does this blindness come?
 
James Madison said:
Any thoughts? I see some differences between Trump's suggestion of ban all Muslims and Carter's executive order.
Click to expand...


Well I'd say the biggest difference is that one was the action of a President dealing with an international crisis, while the other is a campaign talking point from a guy that I hope never gets to be a President dealing with an international crisis.

The government of a long-time ally in the Middle East had been overthrown, and the hostage crisis arose out of a deadly serious anger at the US for our role in supporting that regime. Carter was responding to a nation that was still in the grips of a revolution, and had dozens of American citizens as hostages.

Trump wants to clamp down on Muslims because two lunatics shot up a Christmas party.
 
maxparrish said:
repoman said:
A Caliphate may be a state in the future again.
Click to expand...

Interesting. So a war with a proto-caliphate is an enemy, and their "refugees" are enemy (caliphate) aliens.
Click to expand...

In the same way that Jewish refugees who were German citizens were denied entry to the UK and US in the 1930s and '40s on the basis that they were enemy aliens.

Denying entry to refugees is stupid - the enemy is the people from whom they are running. Not the refugees themselves.
 
AthenaAwakened said:
Don't all nation states restrict the comings and goings of foreign nationals when those states are not at peace?

Did Carter do something out of the ordinary?
Click to expand...

Hell, Roosevelt sent US nationals with foreign ancestry to camps.

He makes Trump look like a moderate.

Wait until college students find out. They'll want Roosevelt taken off their money.
 
bilby said:
maxparrish said:
Interesting. So a war with a proto-caliphate is an enemy, and their "refugees" are enemy (caliphate) aliens.
Click to expand...

In the same way that Jewish refugees who were German citizens were denied entry to the UK and US in the 1930s and '40s on the basis that they were enemy aliens.

Denying entry to refugees is stupid - the enemy is the people from whom they are running. Not the refugees themselves.
Click to expand...

I'll remind you that just after being let into America, some of those Jewish refugees immediately started building nuclear bombs.

Is that the sort of thing we want a bunch of Muslims to be doing?
 
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