Charles Koch responds.

[boneyard bill]

Democrats have all kinds of problems these days what with Obamacare being so unpopular, the economy mired in the doldrums, the public having soundly thrashed Obama over even thinking about intervening in Syria, and now Putin having put him into an impossible corner over Ukraine; that they can't think of anything better to do than to put the blame on the Koch brothers who have been saying nasty things about Democrat policies and Democrat candidates, and they have the money available to make their opinions very widely known.

Of course, the Koch's aren't the only ones spending money on political campaigns and very likely not even the largest. Obama, after all, had the first billion dollar campaign in history.

At any rate, Charles Koch has finally decided to respond to his critics directly, and he did so on the pages of the Wall Street Journal:

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles...3978304579475860515021286.html?mod=hp_opinion

A truly free society is based on a vision of respect for people and what they value. In a truly free society, any business that disrespects its customers will fail, and deserves to do so. The same should be true of any government that disrespects its citizens. The central belief and fatal conceit of the current administration is that you are incapable of running your own life, but those in power are capable of running it for you. This is the essence of big government and collectivism.

More than 200 years ago, Thomas Jefferson warned that this could happen. "The natural progress of things," Jefferson wrote, "is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground."

So Koch argues that he is fighting for liberty. He doesn't want government hand-outs or government protections for himself or his industries. But he doesn't want government running your life either.

Instead of encouraging free and open debate, collectivists strive to discredit and intimidate opponents. They engage in character assassination. (I should know, as the almost daily target of their attacks.) This is the approach that Arthur Schopenhauer described in the 19th century, that Saul Alinsky famously advocated in the 20th, and that so many despots have infamously practiced. Such tactics are the antithesis of what is required for a free society—and a telltale sign that the collectivists do not have good answers.

Bingo! What arguments do we hear from liberals and Democrats constantly. People who oppose us are bad people. If you don' t like Obamacare, you want people to die. If you claim that women are making as much money as men for the same job, you are a sexist. If you opposed gay marriage ten years ago (when Obama publicly opposed gay marriage), you are a homophobe and therefore immediately disqualified from running a corporation. The list goes on and on. Don't defend the details of the proposal. No. Attack the character of the person making the criticism.

Far from trying to rig the system, I have spent decades opposing cronyism and all political favors, including mandates, subsidies and protective tariffs—even when we benefit from them. I believe that cronyism is nothing more than welfare for the rich and powerful, and should be abolished.

Koch Industries was the only major producer in the ethanol industry to argue for the demise of the ethanol tax credit in 2011. That government handout (which cost taxpayers billions) needlessly drove up food and fuel prices as well as other costs for consumers—many of whom were poor or otherwise disadvantaged. Now the mandate needs to go, so that consumers and the marketplace are the ones who decide the future of ethanol.

Wow! There's a program that should be tailor-made for Obama. Worried about income inequality? How about starting with corporate welfare? Republicans want to cut spending? Why doesn't Obama send them a bunch of corporate welfare programs to eliminate? If there's one thing that Obama and at least the libertarian wing of Republicans should be able to agree upon, it should be the elimination of corporate welfare.

The biggest corporate welfare boondoggle of them all is probably the Export-Import Bank. It amounts to little more that a huge subsidy to Boeing. Guess what? Republicans proposed to eliminate it, but it was voted down by the Democrat Senate. Then there are agricultural subsidies. Let's face it. Agribusiness gets the vast majority of the money spent on these subsidies. Again, Republicans proposed to slash agricultural subsidies, but the measure was blocked by Democrats.

But Obama at least favors free trade. He doesn't want to protect American consumers from lower prices for imports. That's why he has asked for "fast track" authority to negotiate more free trade agreements to help American consumers while opening up foreign markets for our producers. How's he doing? The measure passed the Republican-controlled House but is being blocked by Senate Democrats!

Let's also not forget TARP, the big bank bail-out. It was defeated by conservative Republicans in the House with help from a small band of liberal Democrats. But Obama rushed to Washington to lobby those Democrats to switch their votes, and it passed the second time around. And TARP was really small potatoes when you consider the trillions that the Fed has showered on the big banks with Obama's total approval.

It is pointless to listen to political rhetoric but especially so with respect to Democrats and liberals who rarely spout anything other than name-calling to defend their programs. LOOK AT WHAT THEY DO! Democrats will throw your money in any direction that they think will win them votes, but especially where they think it will win them campaign contributions.

Apropos of this Koch points out:

These falsehoods remind me of the late Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan's observation, "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts."

 

[laughing dog]

I agree. Koch is fighting for the liberty of the wealthy to spend as much as they wish in order to influence government. Of course, that is an Orwellian view of liberty.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Democrats have all kinds of problems these days what with Obamacare being so unpopular,

Actually it's kind of popular. My friends who didn't have access to medical care are excited to have appointments and the ability to afford medicines they need.

the economy mired in the doldrums,

Our economy here is steaming ahead at full-employment, jobs are going unfilled and wages are on the upswing. I can't speak for Florida, but Minnesota is booming.

the public having soundly thrashed Obama over even thinking about intervening in Syria

Can't figure out why the public is war weary? Must be the Democrats.

and now Putin having put him into an impossible corner over Ukraine;

I didn't know the US owned the Ukraine.

that they can't think of anything better to do than to put the blame on the Koch brothers who have been saying nasty things about Democrat policies and Democrat candidates, and they have the money available to make their opinions very widely known.

Okay, now I see your straw men. Democrats have succeeded on health care, the economy is recovering strongly in many states, the US don't want to get involved in brutal civil wars, or antagonize a thermonuclear power by directly fighting them, but OH my God, they are criticizing the system that allows wealthy individuals to have undue influence on the democratic system. Oh the horror!

-----

So Koch argues that he is fighting for liberty.

You do know that everyone fights for "liberty", even slaveholders and the most brutal of dictators.

He doesn't want government hand-outs or government protections for himself or his industries. But he doesn't want government running your life either.

He is a billionaire. He doesn't need them. And how on earth is his life being "run" by the government? How are you oppressed by the government? Seriously, I want to hear how your government oppresses you.

Bingo! What arguments do we hear from liberals and Democrats constantly. People who oppose us are bad people. If you don' t like Obamacare, you want people to die. If you claim that women are making as much money as men for the same job, you are a sexist. If you opposed gay marriage ten years ago (when Obama publicly opposed gay marriage), you are a homophobe and therefore immediately disqualified from running a corporation. The list goes on and on. Don't defend the details of the proposal. No. Attack the character of the person making the criticism.

Pot meet kettle.

Let's also not forget TARP, the big bank bail-out. It was defeated by conservative Republicans in the House with help from a small band of liberal Democrats. But Obama rushed to Washington to lobby those Democrats to switch their votes, and it passed the second time around. And TARP was really small potatoes when you consider the trillions that the Fed has showered on the big banks with Obama's total approval.

Nice reinterpretation of history.

 

[The Paul]

Anyone remember when the right was still trying to pretend personal responsibility was something they valued, unlike those collectivist commie bastards?

Bingo! What arguments do we hear from liberals and Democrats constantly. People who oppose us are bad people. If you don' t like Obamacare, you want people to die. If you claim that women are making as much money as men for the same job, you are a sexist. If you opposed gay marriage ten years ago (when Obama publicly opposed gay marriage), you are a homophobe and therefore immediately disqualified from running a corporation. The list goes on and on. Don't defend the details of the proposal. No. Attack the character of the person making the criticism.

Wait, wait, wait... so you're telling me that if I deliberately ignore evidence of discrimination people will think that at the very least I have no interest in rectifying it, that if I oppose healthcare reform I have no interest in improving healthcare, or that if I fight to take rights away from a group of people I will be characterized as prejudiced against that group of people?

I bet if started killing people those spineless fucking Dems would label me a "murderer."

 

[Underseer]

I agree. Koch is fighting for the liberty of the wealthy to spend as much as they wish in order to influence government. Of course, that is an Orwellian view of liberty.

Well, duh.

How are we ever going to establish an aristocracy to rule over us if they have restrictions on how aristocrats can use their wealth to make the government do what they want? No wonder rightists like Boneyard are despondent over this topic.

 

[boneyard bill]

I agree. Koch is fighting for the liberty of the wealthy to spend as much as they wish in order to influence government. Of course, that is an Orwellian view of liberty.

Of course, that's not what Koch said so your point is not in order. What he did say is that he has consistently opposed government programs that would benefit him personally and Koch industries. How many typical voters reject programs that will benefit them personally?

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Actually it's kind of popular. My friends who didn't have access to medical care are excited to have appointments and the ability to afford medicines they need.


Our economy here is steaming ahead at full-employment, jobs are going unfilled and wages are on the upswing. I can't speak for Florida, but Minnesota is booming.


Can't figure out why the public is war weary? Must be the Democrats.


I didn't know the US owned the Ukraine.

Okay, now I see your straw men. Democrats have succeeded on health care, the economy is recovering strongly in many states, the US don't want to get involved in brutal civil wars, or antagonize a thermonuclear power by directly fighting them, but OH my God, they are criticizing the system that allows wealthy individuals to have undue influence on the democratic system. Oh the horror!

-----



You do know that everyone fights for "liberty", even slaveholders and the most brutal of dictators.

He is a billionaire. He doesn't need them. And how on earth is his life being "run" by the government? How are you oppressed by the government? Seriously, I want to hear how your government oppresses you.


Pot meet kettle.


Nice reinterpretation of history.

Almost everything that you say here is just plain wrong. I don't see any point in addressing those point-by-point. They're just all wrong.

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Well, duh.

How are we ever going to establish an aristocracy to rule over us if they have restrictions on how aristocrats can use their wealth to make the government do what they want? No wonder rightists like Boneyard are despondent over this topic.

If I were despondent over this topic, I wouldn't have started this thread.

 

[laughing dog]

Of course, that's not what Koch said so your point is not in order.

Then what did he mean by "Far from trying to rig the system"?

 

[Underseer]

[...]

If I were despondent over this topic, I wouldn't have started this thread.

If you were as nonchalant as you claim to be, there would be no thread. You must be mortified that someone is publicly criticizing the aristocracy again. Maybe you can call up your congressperson and demand more tax cuts and deregulation? That always makes those poor persecuted aristocrats feel less persecuted, and you want them to be less persecuted, don't you?

 

[Narapoia]

I find it difficult to imagine anyone in the world who needs to be defended less by random members of the public than Charles Koch. Actions speak louder than words and its sad that this piece of strawman bashing propaganda would be convincing to anyone.

 

[Earl IV]

Of course, that's not what Koch said so your point is not in order. What he did say is that he has consistently opposed government programs that would benefit him personally and Koch industries. How many typical voters reject programs that will benefit them personally?

You mean besides the poor located south of Mason/Dixon who keep voting Republican?

... can't think of any

 

[ksen]

Charles Koch responds:

 

[+or-1]

Of course, that's not what Koch said so your point is not in order. What he did say is that he has consistently opposed government programs that would benefit him personally and Koch industries. How many typical voters reject programs that will benefit them personally?

"You betcha"

Consider Koch Industries. Despite the Koch Brothers being the biggest financiers of the anti-government right, and despite their billing as libertarian “free market” activists, their company has relied on $88 million worth of government subsidies.

Link

The real problem with the extreme right super rich is that they know that if they shout lies loud enough and long enough there is a segment of the population that will slavishly accept anything they say. The truth is out there but you do have to be interested in knowing it.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Almost everything that you say here is just plain wrong. I don't see any point in addressing those point-by-point. They're just all wrong.

Yes, pointing out my errors would actually mean that you would need to find support for the assertions you made.

 

[Selsaral]

The central belief and fatal conceit of the current administration is that you are incapable of running your own life, but those in power are capable of running it for you.

Oh for the love of God. This is total idiocy.

Instead of encouraging free and open debate, collectivists strive to discredit and intimidate opponents. They engage in character assassination. (I should know, as the almost daily target of their attacks.) This is the approach that Arthur Schopenhauer described in the 19th century, that Saul Alinsky famously advocated in the 20th, and that so many despots have infamously practiced. Such tactics are the antithesis of what is required for a free society—and a telltale sign that the collectivists do not have good answers.

This is one of the most hypocritical statements I've ever seen. What intimidation is happening? Did someone try to scare Koch into not speaking out? Oh, someone criticized him, in the manner of a free and open debate? Wait, what's he whining about? And do Fox news and all of the right-wing media never attempt to discredit anyone? And is Koch not attempting to discredit anyone in this very article? And what Despotic behavior is involved here? What overlord had him arrested and thrown in jail for speaking out? This is not only hypocritical, it's hopelessly confused whining.

If you opposed gay marriage ten years ago (when Obama publicly opposed gay marriage), you are a homophobe and therefore immediately disqualified from running a corporation.

LOL wtf?

The entire piece is one huge, hyperbolic, reality-detached, hypocritical whinefest.

 

[braces_for_impact]

The fact that Koch takes out an article in the WSJ to explain how he's trying to save America and Capitalism only goes to show how self centered he is and how much he over estimates his own importance. He's more like a bull elephant caught in a china shop. Strong, but all he does is cause senseless damage. Tony Stark, he ain't.

 

[boneyard bill]

I find it difficult to imagine anyone in the world who needs to be defended less by random members of the public than Charles Koch. Actions speak louder than words and its sad that this piece of strawman bashing propaganda would be convincing to anyone.

Are the Koch brothers the only ones out there spending money on political causes? What about George Soros? Why aren't you bashing him? He contributes to all these left-wing causes and politicians while he's made billions from the system. Could it be that he finds that left-wing programs actually benefit his money-making efforts? Let's face it, what you dislike are the causes that they support not the simply the fact that they use their money to influence politics.

I didn't need to start this thread to defend the Koch's. They're perfectly capable of doing that themselves. In fact, Koch's op-ed speaks for itself, and he defends himself quite capably. But why do you bash the Koch's for doing what many, many other rich people are doing? If you don't like their policies criticize their policies, but there isn't a word of substance to your post. It's all just insults which EXACTLY confirms what Koch said.

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If you were as nonchalant as you claim to be, there would be no thread. You must be mortified that someone is publicly criticizing the aristocracy again. Maybe you can call up your congressperson and demand more tax cuts and deregulation? That always makes those poor persecuted aristocrats feel less persecuted, and you want them to be less persecuted, don't you?

It never fails. Every time a start a thread that criticizes liberals for failing to address the substance of the issues and for engaging in character assassinations, I get responses that have no substance and try to assassinate my character.

 

[boneyard bill]

You mean besides the poor located south of Mason/Dixon who keep voting Republican?

... can't think of any

What has Obama ever done for the poor? What did Clinton do for the poor? Nothing. I don't really blame them though. The government can't make poor people rich. The only way to get rich through government is to make the right connections and bribe the right people. The best thing that ever happened to Clinton was when he lost control of Congress. With a Republican Congress he couldn't do anything. So he just got out of the way and the country prospered. He probably would have been an even better president if he had less time on the job and more time with Monica Lewinsky.

Unfortunately for the country, Obama keeps his penis in his pants so he has to find something to do while he's in the Oval Office, and what he does always turns out bad.

I thought we couldn't do worse than Bush, but Obama has disappointed me. I was expecting him to be bad, but he has vastly exceeded my expectations.

- - - Updated - - -

"You betcha"



Link

The real problem with the extreme right super rich is that they know that if they shout lies loud enough and long enough there is a segment of the population that will slavishly accept anything they say. The truth is out there but you do have to be interested in knowing it.

Koch did not say that he did not accept ethanol subsidies for his factories. He said he opposed the program. The program would not have gotten repealed by his refusing of the subsidies.

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Oh for the love of God. This is total idiocy.



This is one of the most hypocritical statements I've ever seen. What intimidation is happening? Did someone try to scare Koch into not speaking out? Oh, someone criticized him, in the manner of a free and open debate? Wait, what's he whining about? And do Fox news and all of the right-wing media never attempt to discredit anyone? And is Koch not attempting to discredit anyone in this very article? And what Despotic behavior is involved here? What overlord had him arrested and thrown in jail for speaking out? This is not only hypocritical, it's hopelessly confused whining.



LOL wtf?

The entire piece is one huge, hyperbolic, reality-detached, hypocritical whinefest.

You asked who was intimidated by liberals (or collectivists as Koch calls them), and my very next point responded to that even before you asked the question. (I'm talking about the, now former, CEO of Mozilla in case you didn't get the reference).

And, of course, you responded with the typical character assassination.

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The fact that Koch takes out an article in the WSJ to explain how he's trying to save America and Capitalism only goes to show how self centered he is and how much he over estimates his own importance. He's more like a bull elephant caught in a china shop. Strong, but all he does is cause senseless damage. Tony Stark, he ain't.

Yet another attack on Koch's character rather than on the principles and arguments that he espouses. Almost every post on this thread has confirmed exactly what Koch claimed.

 

[laughing dog]

Koch did not say that he did not accept ethanol subsidies for his factories. He said he opposed the program.

How very principled of him. Of course, he may have been against the program because the subsidies helped his competitors more than it helped him.

Almost every post on this thread has confirmed exactly what Koch claimed.

Almost every post, including yours, has confirmed his character and the vacuity of his claims.

 

[arkirk]

Boneyard: Koch's character and what he does is the issue when it comes to what HE MEANS TO THE WORLD. He is an obfuscator and a liar. He puts millions into his lies. Someone says that guy is crooked and mean spirited and he says..."You're attacking my character." Well......YEAH!

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I was thinking about this as well. He knowingly pays for misinformation to be spread. The "refuse to enroll" folks who encouraged individuals to ignore the mandate and face the penalties. He does deserve criticism.