Child marriage ban bill resurrected in West Virginia Senate

[Jarhyn]

Child marriage ban bill resurrected in West Virginia Senate

CHARLESTON, W.Va. (AP) — A bill to prohibit minors from getting married in West Virginia was resurrected in the state Senate on Thursday, a day after its defeat in a committee. The about-face didn't necessarily give the bill a clear path to passage.

apnews.com

CHARLESTON, W.Va. (AP) — A bill to prohibit minors from getting married in West Virginia was resurrected in the state Senate on Thursday, a day after its defeat in a committee.

The about-face didn’t necessarily give the bill a clear path to passage. Several senators gave impassioned speeches after the bill was brought back, some of whom defended the right of teenagers in love to marry.

Brought to you by the same party politics that argues "but they aren't old enough to decide to delay puberty!(DeLaYeD PuBeRtY, Oh the HoRrOr!!!111)" And "they are too young to hear about LGBT!"

 

[Jarhyn]

The sound of crickets, brought to you by all the people who really care about kids.

 

[ZiprHead]

The sound of crickets, brought to you by all the people who really care about kids.

The righties do seem oddly quiet about this.

 

[TomC]

The sound of crickets, brought to you by all the people who really care about kids.

The righties do seem oddly quiet about this.

Who are the "righties"?

Speaking for myself,

I don't think underage people should decide important things.

Not having sex.
Not having children.
Not having hormone shots.
Not having credit cards.


I'm not OK with any of those things. Kids can't make those decisions for themselves.

Does that make me a "rightie"?
Tom

 

[Toni]

The sound of crickets, brought to you by all the people who really care about kids.

The righties do seem oddly quiet about this.

Who are the "righties"?

Speaking for myself,

I don't think underage people should decide important things.

Not having sex.
Not having children.
Not having hormone shots.
Not having credit cards.


I'm not OK with any of those things. Kids can't make those decisions for themselves.

Does that make me a "rightie"?
Tom

Who do you think should decide when (inevitably) a teenage couple has sex and the girl becomes pregnant? Who decides what to do next? Marriage? Baby? Abortion?

Note: I do not disagree with you about the wisdom of having children or having credit cards when you are not old enough to be able to handle the responsibility and expense of either, although in different ways. Credit cards are relatively easy to keep under 18 year olds from having for themselves. Alas, there is really no good way to prevent teenagers from having sex and from getting pregnant, or from an older person from impregnating a minor. Happens every second of every day,

 

[Derec]

Brought to you by the same party politics that argues "but they aren't old enough to decide to delay puberty!(DeLaYeD PuBeRtY, Oh the HoRrOr!!!111)" And "they are too young to hear about LGBT!"

Sigh. Yet again you are conflating children with teenagers. This bill would affect 16 and 17 year olds, whereas puberty blockers have to be administered before puberty (duh!), so we are talking prepubescent children. Elementary school age, just like the kids addressed with "they are too young to hear about LGBT".

For the record, I do think marriage should not be allowed until 18 and there are age-appropriate ways to introduce elementary kids to LGBT(QIAXYZ) topics. But it is highly disingenuous to pretend that the almost adult teenagers targeted by this bill are the same as elementary school kids.

 

[Derec]

The sound of crickets, brought to you by all the people who really care about kids.

 

[Derec]

Who are the "righties"?

To some posters on here, anybody this side of Leon Trotsky. I am being accused of being a "rightie" every day on here.

I don't think underage people should decide important things.
Not having sex.
Not having children.
Not having hormone shots.
Not having credit cards.

I disagree with some of these. Especially "having sex".

Human development is a continuum, not a binary switch, and rights and responsibilities we give yutes should recognize that. Many teenagers will have sex. In fact, I think most have sex before their 18th birthday. I think 16 year olds are old enough to be honest, and I think most of the developed world (and even some US states like my very own) got it right in that regard. Unlike many other US states that ignore reality.

It's certainly not good for under-18s to have children, although it happens. That's why I am 100% for comprehensive sex ed in schools and also for giving teens access to contraception. Note, if the teens in question plan to go to college, then even having kids at 18 or 19 is too early for them. Or 22, if they plan to pursue education past the undergrad. Boards and bar exams may be hard, but they are harder if you also have to care for an infant or a toddler.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Yet again you are conflating children with teenagers. This bill would affect 16 and 17 year olds, ...it is highly disingenuous to pretend that the almost adult teenagers targeted by this bill ...

From op article:

Currently, children can marry as young as 16 in West Virginia with parental consent. Anyone younger than that also must get a judge’s waiver.

...

Cabell County Democratic Sen. Mike Woelfel, an attorney, said he represented a girl who got both married and divorced when she was in the eighth grade.

Emphasis added.

 

[Trebaxian Vir]

Brought to you by the same party politics that argues "but they aren't old enough to decide to delay puberty!(DeLaYeD PuBeRtY, Oh the HoRrOr!!!111)" And "they are too young to hear about LGBT!"​

Party politics are but a distraction, designed to bestow upon fools of both persuasions the illusion of triumph and of defeat
  I fail to see the signifance of the ʟ.ɢ.ʙ.ᴛ. movement. The “anti-sodomy laws,”as they are called, are all still in the books. Once the surplus population has been reduced to the desired level, those laws will once again be enforced. I profess neither support nor opposition to these laws, nor to the ʟ.ɢ.ʙ.ᴛ. movement, but instead I view the entire situation with utter indifference. To those not invested with emotional fervor, the truth of the matter is laughably obviously, indeed it could not be more evident.​

 

[Toni]

Yet again you are conflating children with teenagers. This bill would affect 16 and 17 year olds, ...it is highly disingenuous to pretend that the almost adult teenagers targeted by this bill ...

From op article:

Currently, children can marry as young as 16 in West Virginia with parental consent. Anyone younger than that also must get a judge’s waiver.

...

Cabell County Democratic Sen. Mike Woelfel, an attorney, said he represented a girl who got both married and divorced when she was in the eighth grade.

Emphasis added.

Actually, a girl I went to school with got married at 14. To a guy who was 28, if memory serves. She was pregnant. Her mother encouraged the relationship. The last I heard—and it’s probably been a decade or more, they were still married and had 4 kids.

We were friends—not close but still friends. She was very smart. I remember being extremely upset, especially because in those days, a pregnant girl was forced out of school. She was deemed to be a ‘bad influence’ on other, presumably virginal girls. If the father of the child was still in high school, He was encouraged to continue and graduate. Apparently he was considered to be a fine example for other kids in school.

I can think of at least one other girl who had to drop out before our sophomore year. The father was also in his 20’s.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Yet again you are conflating children with teenagers. This bill would affect 16 and 17 year olds, ...it is highly disingenuous to pretend that the almost adult teenagers targeted by this bill ...

From op article:

Currently, children can marry as young as 16 in West Virginia with parental consent. Anyone younger than that also must get a judge’s waiver.

...

Cabell County Democratic Sen. Mike Woelfel, an attorney, said he represented a girl who got both married and divorced when she was in the eighth grade.

Emphasis added.

Actually, a girl I went to school with got married at 14. To a guy who was 28, if memory serves. She was pregnant. Her mother encouraged the relationship. The last I heard—and it’s probably been a decade or more, they were still married and had 4 kids.

We were friends—not close but still friends. She was very smart. I remember being extremely upset, especially because in those days, a pregnant girl was forced out of school. She was deemed to be a ‘bad influence’ on other, presumably virginal girls. If the father of the child was still in high school, He was encouraged to continue and graduate. Apparently he was considered to be a fine example for other kids in school.

I can think of at least one other girl who had to drop out before our sophomore year. The father was also in his 20’s.

Exactly. Current law in WV says less than 16 can do it with parental consent + judge's waiver, i.e. professional opinion of justification. It isn't that different than parental consent + doctor's professional opinion of documented justification for hormones/blockers. Age is less different than Derec made it out to be, like 8th grade vs 6th.

 

[ZiprHead]

Ted Nugent "adopted" a fourteen year old girl with her parent's permission (and probably a crap-ton of money to grease the wheels.)

 

[Jarhyn]

Anyway, it seems this is the shit we should actually be protecting children from.

As to hormones, I think that if we can have for the previous segment of history expected around half of people to grow up at that age being exposed to those hormones, we have no ethical grounds as a species to say people are too young for that. That may be age discrimination in favor of a silly notion, since we expect people to shut up and take it when it is their own body doing it?

We know what happens. Many of us have watched it happen with animals in our care.

It's the oldest, most widely observed surgery throughout history.

The only experimental part is "try before you buy".

There is a big difference between a law discussing interpersonal legal relationships and personal morphology.

I think aspects of morphology, at least within the bounds of morphologies seen pursued through history and the mechanisms which successfully "pursue" them, should largely be up to an individual at the age that such development happens whether it is discussed or not.

This is different from validating a legal contract that involves discussion of sex, particularly with minors.

The fact is, I'm alright with laws that put a continuing legal liability and jeopardy upon parties much over 18 who have sex with folks much under 18, and whose liabilities increase with range.

There are better ways to define that boundary, but I think that allowing things like marriages at that age becomes foolishly naive.

I think people have some right to a period of their life wherein they are not the nexus of credit, and debt, and contracts, and deep consequences on their futures.

Maybe they chomp at the bit and pull towards that future, but everyone does have an entitlement to a time where they are free of it.

 

[bilby]

Once the surplus population has been reduced to the desired level

If you think that there's a "surplus population" that needs to be reduced, but don't include yourself as a part of that surplus, then you're an evil cunt.

Don't be an evil cunt. The world already has a vast surplus of them.

 

[Trebaxian Vir]

Ted Nugent "adopted" a fourteen year old girl with her parent's permission (and probably a crap-ton of money to grease the wheels.)

I have no idea whom Ten Nugent is, but unless he is a serial killer or something, I would have worded the above statement much differently:

Ten Nugent adopted a 14 year-old adult woman with her own permssion, and with her parent's permission.

Because unless you are omitting any important details, that would be a more accurate account of the objective reality of the situation of which you speak.

And to that I would pose but one question: What of it?

 

[Jarhyn]

"14 year old". Ok.
"adult woman". Ok.
"14 year old adult woman" Hmmm...

Something seems fishy about that last one.

The split on that one... I'm 50/50 leaning between "3 kids in a trench coat", and "someone who probably needs a document filed that restricts how close they can get to minors".

 

[Trebaxian Vir]

Once the surplus population has been reduced to the desired level​

If you think that there's a "surplus population" that needs to be reduced, but don't include yourself as a part of that surplus, then you're an evil cunt.

Don't be an evil cunt. The world already has a vast surplus of them.​

I never said that I believed that was a surplus population. I was explaining the motives behind the promotion of the ʟ.ɢ.ʙ.ᴛ. movement and why the anti-sodomy laws are all still in the books. It is because, “once the surplus population has been reduced to the desired level, those laws will once again be enforced.” That is the reasoning behind it. Not my reasoning. It is regarded as a surplus because it is imposisble or very difficult to manage such a large number of people, i.e. to control everyone, at least to the extent to whcih the powers that hold sway over the masses want to take it. They want total compliance. They want to be able more or less to run every aspect of your life if they wanted to. But there are too many people in existence for them to do that. So they want to reduce the number of people, and they will come up with reasons to jusfify it, and you will probably agree with those reasons, blinded as you are by partisan politics.​

 

[Trebaxian Vir]

"14 year old". Ok.
"adult woman". Ok.
"14 year old adult woman" Hmmm...

Something seems fishy about that last one.

The split on that one... I'm 50/50 leaning between "3 kids in a trench coat", and "someone who probably needs a document filed that restricts how close they can get to minors".

At 13 or 14 I was an adult.

 

[Patooka]

"14 year old". Ok.
"adult woman". Ok.
"14 year old adult woman" Hmmm...

Something seems fishy about that last one.

The split on that one... I'm 50/50 leaning between "3 kids in a trench coat", and "someone who probably needs a document filed that restricts how close they can get to minors".

At 13 or 14 I was an adult.

No, you weren't.