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Christmas Parade Driver was Out on Bail: Bail Reform Discussion

Generation55

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"Meet the 'progressive' prosecutor who gave Waukesha parade suspect Darrell Brooks 'inappropriately low' bail"

"Is there going to be an individual I divert, or I put into treatment program, who's going to go out and kill somebody?" he reportedly told the Milwaukee Sentinel-Journal in 2007. "You bet. Guaranteed. It's guaranteed to happen. It does not invalidate the overall approach."

Chilling quote....What do think about this? His original bail was $10,000 but it was lowered to$1,000. If he was detained on $10,000 bail, he would've never been out to do what he did. The prosecutor even admits his bail reform predicted something like this would happen.

Proponents of bail reform say, "If someone commits a crime and they can't afford bail, you are criminalizing poverty!" But, this also means you will let criminals back on the street to commit more crimes. It's rationalized that if a rich person commits a crime, they can afford bail and get out. But, rich people don't commit these types of crimes we see poor people committing. A poor person is more likely to steal from a store than a rich person.

It seems like it makes sense, but it breaks down once you realize that it just gives poor people an excuse to commit more crimes. If a poor person can't afford bail, then they shouldn't have committed the crime. It's sort of like the "starving person in the street argument." They are choosing to not get a job.If someone refuses to get a job to help themselves (not counting mental illness), they are choosing starvation for themselves. This is freedom. I was eating in a Burger King once and a homeless man was in there talking to a customer. The customer told him, "Go talk to the manager about a job." He said "no" and kept asking the customer for a dollar. I can sympathize with people, but there comes a point where starvation is freedom.
 
You’re really confused. Getting out on an affordable bail is not ‘giving criminals an excuse to commit more crimes.’ Those released on bail remain accused of crimes—not convicted for one thing. For another low income individuals, particularly persons of color, are disproportionally charged with higher levels of crimes compared with whites accused of committing the same offenses and are more likely to be held without bail or effectively without bail by having an unaffordable bail set for them. While awaiting trial, they risk losing jobs, places to live, custody of their children and other significantly negative effects—because they couldn’t come up with a couple of thousand dollars. BTW, innocent people are arrested, convicted abs serve sentences for crimes they did not commit every single day.

In this case—someone who had already skipped bail—yes, that is someone who should not have had easy access to bail.
 
You’re really confused. Getting out on an affordable bail is not ‘giving criminals an excuse to commit more crimes.’ Those released on bail remain accused of crimes—not convicted for one thing. For another low income individuals, particularly persons of color, are disproportionally charged with higher levels of crimes compared with whites accused of committing the same offenses and are more likely to be held without bail or effectively without bail by having an unaffordable bail set for them. While awaiting trial, they risk losing jobs, places to live, custody of their children and other significantly negative effects—because they couldn’t come up with a couple of thousand dollars. BTW, innocent people are arrested, convicted abs serve sentences for crimes they did not commit every single day.

In this case—someone who had already skipped bail—yes, that is someone who should not have had easy access to bail.

but they don't give consideration to the level of crime committed. What would've made more sense is to say, "This guy is a repeat multiple offender. Make his bail higher." I can understand maybe the first time, then raise it the 2nd time, but the 3rd time, cmon! Do something more!!!!
 
You’re really confused. Getting out on an affordable bail is not ‘giving criminals an excuse to commit more crimes.’ Those released on bail remain accused of crimes—not convicted for one thing. For another low income individuals, particularly persons of color, are disproportionally charged with higher levels of crimes compared with whites accused of committing the same offenses and are more likely to be held without bail or effectively without bail by having an unaffordable bail set for them. While awaiting trial, they risk losing jobs, places to live, custody of their children and other significantly negative effects—because they couldn’t come up with a couple of thousand dollars. BTW, innocent people are arrested, convicted abs serve sentences for crimes they did not commit every single day.

In this case—someone who had already skipped bail—yes, that is someone who should not have had easy access to bail.

but they don't give consideration to the level of crime committed. What would've made more sense is to say, "This guy is a repeat multiple offender. Make his bail higher." I can understand maybe the first time, then raise it the 2nd time, but the 3rd time, cmon! Do something more!!!!
You’re really confused. Getting out on an affordable bail is not ‘giving criminals an excuse to commit more crimes.’ Those released on bail remain accused of crimes—not convicted for one thing. For another low income individuals, particularly persons of color, are disproportionally charged with higher levels of crimes compared with whites accused of committing the same offenses and are more likely to be held without bail or effectively without bail by having an unaffordable bail set for them. While awaiting trial, they risk losing jobs, places to live, custody of their children and other significantly negative effects—because they couldn’t come up with a couple of thousand dollars. BTW, innocent people are arrested, convicted abs serve sentences for crimes they did not commit every single day.

In this case—someone who had already skipped bail—yes, that is someone who should not have had easy access to bail.

but they don't give consideration to the level of crime committed. What would've made more sense is to say, "This guy is a repeat multiple offender. Make his bail higher." I can understand maybe the first time, then raise it the 2nd time, but the 3rd time, cmon! Do something more!!!!
I'm not disagreeing but I don't think that you are seeing the point: The ability to stay out of jail pending trial is almost entirely a matter of money. And this should not be the case. Unfortunately it is.

Often, too, it is difficult to predict with a high degree of accuracy who will violate the terms of their bail and commit another crime.

Consider a 40 year old married man, with a good, professional job, a wife, 2.5 kids, a clean record, although as a kid, he did his share of petty vandalism and under age drinking, a little pot--like a lot of kids. But he came from a 'good home' and wasn't arrested until as an adult: Arrested for driving under the influence. Being jailed until trial could well mean that he loses his job, his family loses their home, and the marriage falls apart. EVEN IF he wasn't really under the influence (as determined at trial). We tend to have a lot of sympathy for this man who leads a life that on paper, looks exactly like what we think it should look like: married, children, good job, clean record. We'd think it was a travesty for him to lose his life because someone pulled him over and arrested him for one little offense.

Now, suppose he makes bail, continues with his job, wife, kids, etc. And drives drunk and smashes into a kid on a bicycle. Or an old man crossing the street. Or a woman and her children on the way home from school. We'd be outraged that he was allowed to drive again!

Now consider a different 40 year old who had a rougher start in life, dropped out of school, had some petty convictions for tagging and weed but it made it harder for him to achieve economic security. But he makes it! He finds a nice partner and they marry, have a couple of kids, just put a down payment on a house. He gets into an apprentice program, becomes a journeyman electrician and.....gets pulled over under suspicion for driving under the influence. Because he is a little slow to produce his license (he isn't under the influence, so he's confused as to why he was stopped), he gets slapped with resisting arrest. He can't make bail and has to sit in jail pending trial and he loses his job, his family, and that nice little house they were just getting ready to move into.

OR: Consider a young mother, driving her kid home from soccer practice. She is pulled over because she's driving erratically. Cop believes she's under the influence. What is really going on is that she has (as yet) undiagnosed diabetes and has very low blood sugar. She's jailed, and can't make bail because she's newly separated, has just started a new job and her soon to be ex uses this as an excuse to get full custody of their kid.

Which person deserves to have their life destroyed because they can/cannot come up with a few hundred or a few thousand dollars?

Here's a link (yes, it's the ACLU) that explains the issue much better than my poor examples: https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/bail-reform
 
The guy, a habitual offender, got out on $1K bond after running over his girlfriend. Da fuq. The prosecutor realizes his office made a massive mistake and is in damage control. These lefty policies cost lives.
 
The guy, a habitual offender, got out on $1K bond after running over his girlfriend. Da fuq. The prosecutor realizes his office made a massive mistake and is in damage control. These lefty policies cost lives.
The right wing policies of incarcerating accused persons, primarily poor and persons of color for weeks to months and sometimes longer, pending trial--when in fact, they may be found innocent of charges and not uncommonly, have already spent more time in custody than their sentence would have encompassed--well those policies cost lives as well.
 
The guy, a habitual offender, got out on $1K bond after running over his girlfriend. Da fuq. The prosecutor realizes his office made a massive mistake and is in damage control. These lefty policies cost lives.
The right wing policies of incarcerating accused persons, primarily poor and persons of color for weeks to months and sometimes longer, pending trial--when in fact, they may be found innocent of charges and not uncommonly, have already spent more time in custody than their sentence would have encompassed--well those policies cost lives as well.

But there has to be some common sense solution between "Criminals are newborn lambs deserving of leniency!" and "Lock 'em all up!!!!"

It is like those relaxed laws on shoplifting in San Francisco where theft under $950 is only a misdeamenor. So you could technically steal from 20 stores in a day and as long as each citation is under $950 you will go free. This is stupid. In Texas a first time shoplifter under a certain amount is a misdeamenor but if you are caught a 2nd time it is a felony. Now that makes more common sense sense.
 
The guy, a habitual offender, got out on $1K bond after running over his girlfriend. Da fuq. The prosecutor realizes his office made a massive mistake and is in damage control. These lefty policies cost lives.
The right wing policies of incarcerating accused persons, primarily poor and persons of color for weeks to months and sometimes longer, pending trial--when in fact, they may be found innocent of charges and not uncommonly, have already spent more time in custody than their sentence would have encompassed--well those policies cost lives as well.

But there has to be some common sense solution between "Criminals are newborn lambs deserving of leniency!" and "Lock 'em all up!!!!"

It is like those relaxed laws on shoplifting in San Francisco where theft under $950 is only a misdeamenor. So you could technically steal from 20 stores in a day and as long as each citation is under $950 you will go free. This is stupid. In Texas a first time shoplifter under a certain amount is a misdeamenor but if you are caught a 2nd time it is a felony. Now that makes more common sense sense.
Bail is about people of stature or modest income being able to get out of jail while they await trial. That is all it is about. Bail reform was put forth to let poorer people not be stuck in jail which had a tendency to mean they'd be more likely to be convicted.

If this person was a danger to society, he shouldn't be allowed to get out period.
 
The guy, a habitual offender, got out on $1K bond after running over his girlfriend. Da fuq. The prosecutor realizes his office made a massive mistake and is in damage control.
Agreed. The bail needs to fit the crime regardless of ability to pay. Whether we are a society engaging in discrimination based on race or social standing is a different matter entirely.
 
The guy, a habitual offender, got out on $1K bond after running over his girlfriend. Da fuq. The prosecutor realizes his office made a massive mistake and is in damage control. These lefty policies cost lives.
Man, if there is one group of people that are known for being liberal... it'd be prosecutors.
 
The guy, a habitual offender, got out on $1K bond after running over his girlfriend. Da fuq. The prosecutor realizes his office made a massive mistake and is in damage control. These lefty policies cost lives.
The right wing policies of incarcerating accused persons, primarily poor and persons of color for weeks to months and sometimes longer, pending trial--when in fact, they may be found innocent of charges and not uncommonly, have already spent more time in custody than their sentence would have encompassed--well those policies cost lives as well.

But there has to be some common sense solution between "Criminals are newborn lambs deserving of leniency!" and "Lock 'em all up!!!!"

It is like those relaxed laws on shoplifting in San Francisco where theft under $950 is only a misdeamenor. So you could technically steal from 20 stores in a day and as long as each citation is under $950 you will go free. This is stupid. In Texas a first time shoplifter under a certain amount is a misdeamenor but if you are caught a 2nd time it is a felony. Now that makes more common sense sense.
I think you are skipping over the part in my first thread where I stated that I think the fact that he had already skipped bail should have raised the bar to him receiving bail considerably higher--including being denied bail.

I am certain that there are a handful of enterprising individuals who will carefully shoplift under $950 for 20 days but I'm also certain that at that point, they could find other charges to hold such an individual on. And why should everyone else face unaffordable bails because the law isn't clever enough to account for the few who are able to exploit the law to the fullest? How is this really different than say, Bezos and Branson and Musk and the Waltons being able to exploit tax (and other) laws for their financial advantage and expecting less obscenely wealthy people to pick up the tab (which we do, btw)? There are always going to be people who are able to exploit laws and rules and regulations. Best thoughtfully write laws to make that less possible.

In what universe does a person who shoplifts some bread or formula or a candy bar TWICE deserve a felony charge? Oh, right: Texas. That alone should tell us how unreasonable and draconian this law is.
 
I know nothing more about this than what I've read on this thread.
But it sure looks like a failed attempt at "suicide by cop".

How can you set bail for people like that? And without being a mindreader how can you tell? With the clarity of hindsight it's easy to pick up warnings, but that's almost always true.
Tom
 
I know nothing more about this than what I've read on this thread.
But it sure looks like a failed attempt at "suicide by cop".

How can you set bail for people like that? And without being a mindreader how can you tell? With the clarity of hindsight it's easy to pick up warnings, but that's almost always true.
Tom

He’s a black racist who intentionally targeted white people. How did you get “suicide by cop”?
 
I know nothing more about this than what I've read on this thread.
But it sure looks like a failed attempt at "suicide by cop".

How can you set bail for people like that? And without being a mindreader how can you tell? With the clarity of hindsight it's easy to pick up warnings, but that's almost always true.
Tom
That's the first I've heard of that theory. He was trying to escape the police and immediately after the carnage took refuge in some random stranger's house (by making up some weird story about not getting picked up by an Uber driver). If he wanted to die by cop suicide, he could have made it real easy by resisting arrest, taking a hostage, etc.
 
I know nothing more about this than what I've read on this thread.
But it sure looks like a failed attempt at "suicide by cop".

How can you set bail for people like that? And without being a mindreader how can you tell? With the clarity of hindsight it's easy to pick up warnings, but that's almost always true.
Tom

He’s a black racist who intentionally targeted white people. How did you get “suicide by cop”?
Not sure if serious. Is that some recent development, or are you mocking the "everything is about race" crowd?
 
I know nothing more about this than what I've read on this thread.
But it sure looks like a failed attempt at "suicide by cop".

How can you set bail for people like that? And without being a mindreader how can you tell? With the clarity of hindsight it's easy to pick up warnings, but that's almost always true.
Tom

He’s a black racist who intentionally targeted white people. How did you get “suicide by cop”?
Not sure if serious. Is that some recent development, or are you mocking the "everything is about race" crowd?

EXCLUSIVE: 'The old white ppl…knock dem TF out!' Waukesha suspect shared social media posts promoting violence towards white people and claiming black people were the 'true Hebrews'

The charging documents also state that he intentionally hit his victims. But his victims are white and he's black, so the media is gonna bury this.

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The guy, a habitual offender, got out on $1K bond after running over his girlfriend. Da fuq. The prosecutor realizes his office made a massive mistake and is in damage control. These lefty policies cost lives.
The right wing policies of incarcerating accused persons, primarily poor and persons of color for weeks to months and sometimes longer, pending trial--when in fact, they may be found innocent of charges and not uncommonly, have already spent more time in custody than their sentence would have encompassed--well those policies cost lives as well.
FFS. He ran over a person. Got only $1K bond.
 
He’s a black racist who intentionally targeted white people. How did you get “suicide by cop”?

That's the first I've heard of that theory. He was trying to escape the police and immediately after the carnage took refuge in some random stranger's house

I'm not pretending to understand what was going on in the mind of someone who could do anything as horrible as crash through a Christmas Parade. The line from an old Doors song "His brain is squirming like a toad..." is what I think of.

But yeah, it still looks like a suicide attempt. However subconscious it might have been. I'm just glad that I don't have to deal with him in a compassionate way going forward.
Tom
 
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