• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Chronicles in Socialist Success Stories - Venezuela Endlessly Circles the Drain

Oil prices well below $20/bbl and naive, impressionable electorate is what gave Venezuela Chavez.

He won four elections.

That's pretty naive.

All kinds of nefarious types win elections.

Shit, Sepp Blatter got elected four times so far, and is up for a fifth shot at reelection. Which he will probably win.

Getting elected is no indication of probity.
 
He won four elections.

That's pretty naive.

All kinds of nefarious types win elections.

Shit, Sepp Blatter got elected four times so far, and is up for a fifth shot at reelection. Which he will probably win.

Getting elected is no indication of probity.

He won because a majority of Venezuelans supported him and his policies.

These were open elections and as clean as any US presidential elections.

Yes Chavez had opposition. From the capitalists in Venezuela that exploited and oppressed the indigenous population for decades.
 
All kinds of nefarious types win elections.

Shit, Sepp Blatter got elected four times so far, and is up for a fifth shot at reelection. Which he will probably win.

Getting elected is no indication of probity.

He won because a majority of Venezuelans supported him and his policies.

These were open elections and as clean as any US presidential elections.

Yes Chavez had opposition. From the capitalists in Venezuela that exploited and oppressed the indigenous population for decades.

You never addressed his tactic of using charges to knock out any opposition candidate that could actually threaten him.
 
He won four elections.
In addition to unsavory tricks that Loren outlined, please look again at the oil price chart. Chavez was incredibly lucky that oil prices skyrocketed pretty much as soon as he took power which gave his government an incredible windfall which he spent on various social programs (even going so far as to starve the goose that lays golden eggs (i.e. PDVSA) of necessary investment which is why Venezuelan oil production actually decreased during his reign). Now that the oil prices are lower (but even at the bottom of the 2014/2015 plunge they were about three times higher than at the bottom in 1999 which illustrates how much the boligarchs have screwed the pooch) it is impossible to hide the systemic flaws with the Bolivarian economic model.

That's pretty naive.
Are you talking of your own position?
 
In addition to unsavory tricks that Loren outlined, please look again at the oil price chart. Chavez was incredibly lucky that oil prices skyrocketed pretty much as soon as he took power which gave his government an incredible windfall which he spent on various social programs (even going so far as to starve the goose that lays golden eggs (i.e. PDVSA) of necessary investment which is why Venezuelan oil production actually decreased during his reign). Now that the oil prices are lower (but even at the bottom of the 2014/2015 plunge they were about three times higher than at the bottom in 1999 which illustrates how much the boligarchs have screwed the pooch) it is impossible to hide the systemic flaws with the Bolivarian economic model.

So let me get this straight.

When oil prices rise, Chavez is lucky.

When oil prices plummet, his policies are no good.

Is this what you want me to buy?

Perhaps the policies didn't anticipate the extent of the plummet, that is all.

And the plummet is completely out of the hands of Venezuela.
 
After decades of corruption in high places, Chavez was a breath of fresh air in Venezuela, as it is in many Latin countries. But what he did was to prove one certainty. Socialism doesn't work!
 
In addition to unsavory tricks that Loren outlined, please look again at the oil price chart. Chavez was incredibly lucky that oil prices skyrocketed pretty much as soon as he took power which gave his government an incredible windfall which he spent on various social programs (even going so far as to starve the goose that lays golden eggs (i.e. PDVSA) of necessary investment which is why Venezuelan oil production actually decreased during his reign). Now that the oil prices are lower (but even at the bottom of the 2014/2015 plunge they were about three times higher than at the bottom in 1999 which illustrates how much the boligarchs have screwed the pooch) it is impossible to hide the systemic flaws with the Bolivarian economic model.

So let me get this straight.

When oil prices rise, Chavez is lucky.

When oil prices plummet, his policies are no good.

Is this what you want me to buy?

Perhaps the policies didn't anticipate the extent of the plummet, that is all.

And the plummet is completely out of the hands of Venezuela.

His policies have never been good but rising oil prices can mask the problems.
 
He won because a majority of Venezuelans supported him and his policies.

These were open elections and as clean as any US presidential elections.

Yes Chavez had opposition. From the capitalists in Venezuela that exploited and oppressed the indigenous population for decades.

You may want to escape that fantasy bubble of yours.

Judicial Independence

Since President Chávez and his supporters in the National Assembly conducted a political takeover of the Supreme Court in 2004, the judiciary has largely ceased to function as an independent branch of government. Members of the Supreme Court have openly rejected the principle of separation of powers, publicly pledged their commitment to advancing the government’s political agenda, and repeatedly ruled in favor of the government, validating the government’s disregard for human rights.

Judge María Lourdes Afiuni remains under criminal prosecution as a result of a 2009 ruling against the government. In December 2009, Afiuni was detained on the day she authorized the conditional release of a government critic who had spent nearly three years in prison awaiting trial on corruption charges. Although Afiuni’s ruling complied with a recommendation by international human rights monitors—and was consistent with Venezuelan law—a provisional judge who had publicly pledged his loyalty to Chávez ordered her to stand trial on charges of corruption, abuse of authority, and "favoring the evasion of justice." Afiuni spent more than a year in deplorable conditions in a women's prison, and over two years under house arrest. In June 2013, she was granted conditional liberty, but at time of writing remained bound by a court order forbidding her to make any public statements about her case.

Freedom of Media

Over the past decade, the government has expanded and abused its powers to regulate media. While sharp criticism of the government is still common in several newspapers and some radio stations, fear of government reprisals has made self-censorship a serious problem.

In 2010, the National Assembly amended the telecommunications law to grant the government power to suspend or revoke concessions to private outlets if it is “convenient for the interests of the nation.” It also expanded the scope of a restrictive broadcasting statute to cover the Internet, allowing the arbitrary suspension of websites for the vaguely defined offense of “incitement.” Previously, amendments to the criminal code had expanded the scope and severity of defamation laws that criminalize disrespect of high government officials.

The government has taken aggressive steps to reduce the availability of media outlets that engage in critical programming. Venezuela’s oldest private television channel, RCTV, which was arbitrarily removed from public airwaves in 2007, was then driven off cable TV in 2010.

The government subsequently pursued administrative sanctions against Globovisión, which was for years the only major channel that remained critical of Chávez. The broadcasting authority opened nine administrative investigations against the channel. In one case, it imposed a fine of US$2.1 million for allegedly violating the broadcasting statute when Globovisión aired images of a prison riot in 2011. In April 2013, Globovisión was sold to government supporters because, according to its owner, it had become politically, economically, and legally unviable. Since then, it has significantly reduced its critical programming.

The government has also targeted other media outlets for arbitrary sanction and censorship. For example, in a case brought by the ombudsman, a specialized court to protect children fined El Nacional newspaper in August 2013 for publishing on its front page a photograph of a dozen naked corpses in the Bello Monte morgue in Caracas. The image accompanied an article about illegal arms and violence, which are major public concerns in Venezuela. Since the picture was printed in 2010, the court forbade the paper from publishing “images, information and publicity of any type containing blood, arms, and messages of terror, physical aggression, images with contents of war and messages about deaths that could alter the psychological well-being of boys, girls, and adolescents in Venezuela.”

In November 2013, the broadcasting authority opened an administrative investigation against eight Internet providers for allowing web sites that published information on unofficial exchange rates, and threatened to revoke their licenses if they did not immediately block the sites. Days later, it asked Twitter to suspend accounts related to such websites.

http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2014/country-chapters/venezuela?page=2

If you think having a government censored media, arrests and intimidation of government critics, and a corrupt and non-independent judiciary allows for elections "as clean as the US", then trying to argue you out of such a delusion is futile.

- - - Updated - - -

Perhaps the policies didn't anticipate the extent of the plummet, that is all.

And the plummet is completely out of the hands of Venezuela.

Given that a plummet like this happens about once every 15 years, it is quite reckless to base a society on such a plummet never again occurring, wouldn't you agree?
 
So let me get this straight.
By all means. Yes, I am skeptical you are capable or at least willing.

When oil prices rise, Chavez is lucky.
Isn't he? From less than $10 when he took power in 1999 to almost $150 in 2008. That's 15 fold increase in less than a decade. Note though that when taking into account production costs and discount Venezuelan oil is sold at due to its poor quality it was pretty much worthless in 1999 so the effective increase was much higher than 15x. And since Chavez had nothing to do with this increase and since it brought his government an incredible windfall I would he was incredibly lucky.

When oil prices plummet, his policies are no good.
They weren't any good from the beginning. It's just that high oil prices could mask it for the most part for a long time.
Imagine a man who is bad at personal finances but earns a lot. He makes enough that despite his poor financial decisions he is doing pretty well due to his high income. Imagine then that he gets laid off and has to take a much less paying job but continues making the same financial decisions and now they are hurting him big time. But he didn't start making poor financial decisions when he started earning less money, he was making them all along.

Is this what you want me to buy?
No, honestly I did not expect you to understand it.

Perhaps the policies didn't anticipate the extent of the plummet, that is all.
Compared to situation in 1999 the oil prices were still relatively high in early 2015. And "the policies" should take into consideration that oil prices may dip just like an individual should consider the possibility that his high paying job might disappear. Besides, oil prices are back at $60 (sorry semiopen!) now and Venezuela is still a basket case. I suspect the bus driver has driven the nation off the cliff so it would not matter even if oil prices go to back $100 at this point in the saga!
_80425101_dec0f01b-861d-4683-a7e9-687a7608d0fe.jpg


And the plummet is completely out of the hands of Venezuela.

Sure, but the idiotic three-tiered exchange rate is not.
Moronic price controls are not.
Overspending on social programs is not.
Underinvesting in oil exploration and infrastructure is not.
Alienating private enterprise is not.
Not paying foreign businesses (and stealing their assets when they complain) is not.
And so on.
 
Last edited:
Am I the only one who doesn't understand why these posts keep popping up? Yes, Venezuala has serious economic issues. Money was squandered, external investment gone. It seems like an extrapolation is being attempted... see! Socialism is bad... therefore minimum wage in the US is bad.

They keep popping up because some of our far-left residents used to keep crowing about how Venezuela was doing. There isn't a direct reference to the old stuff because...
... because you don't actually remember who said it or what they were talking about but you have a strong impression in your gut that leftists love to talk about Venezuela because Obama.

What is it you support in Venezuela?

Freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, fair elections, respect for property rights, respect for business, a return of incentives for actually producing things, reasonable fiscal policy, reasonable monetary policy, leaders who do not repeatedly commit well known and predictable economic errors like price controls that cause nothing but misery among the population, less murder and kidnapping, less corruption and cronyism, more international beauty queens.

So the return of 4 things they had before Chavez (and arguably never lost) plus 9 other things they never really had. That seems reasonable.

It's also worth pointing out that RCTV -- America's favorite "freedom of the press" martyr in Venezuela -- openly supported and directly cooperated with the coup that ousted Chavez in the first place. Any other country, their producers would have been brought up on sedition charges. Chavez, on the other hand, used some underhanded legislative tricks to systematically drive them out of business (and even then didn't completely succeed; RCTV still broadcasts on satellite networks, and their vitriol has only gotten worse).

If there's something to fault here, it's the Bolivars abusing legislative power to drive their opposition out of business. Which, again, makes Chavez's people pretty much neck and neck with the Republicans in the category of "shitty things that politicians do while they're in power."

He won four elections.

That's pretty naive.

He won one election.
No, he won four. Sour grapes from his opposition notwithstanding.

It's also worth pointing out that Chavez and his supporters also LOST several elections and referendums, many of them key to implementing their agenda.

Whatever YOU think about the direction Venezuela went under Chavez, the fact of the matter is the majority of Venezuelans genuinely believed in that path. Not because of naïveté, not because they were leftists, but because they believed it would be better for their society, better for the people, better for Venezuela. They acted more than once in a rational and democratic fashion to elect him in the first place. The opposition acted out of eltisim and racism, first by seeking to prevent Chavez's supporters from being able to vote at all, and then by rendering their vote null and void by overthrowing their elected leader in a coup. Since then they have pulled some insanely underhanded political stunts to keep Chavez out of power, in direct defiance of the majority, in direct defiance of their own constitution. Chavez and his people fought back with their usual blend of incompetence and bravado and the result is that Western media hates them for their successes and celebrates their failures.

At the end of the dat, the opposition party did more to undermine democracy in Venezuela than Chavez ever could.

You can't be elected if you are facing charges.
Of course you can. It's just harder to do. Sort of like how in America you can't be elected if you don't get the endorsement of either the Democratic or Republican parties. It's not impossible, it's just really really hard.

If you think having a government censored media, arrests and intimidation of government critics, and a corrupt and non-independent judiciary allows for elections "as clean as the US", then trying to argue you out of such a delusion is futile.
Actually, I believe "As clean as the U.S." is to set a disturbingly low bar. A "corrupt and non-independent judiciary" is one of OUR problems too, except that increasingly we have judges are are not even loyal to the government, just to a political clique within a particular party (not even sure which is worse).

But, hey, we're still better than North Korea.:joy:
 
It's also worth pointing out that RCTV -- America's favorite "freedom of the press" martyr in Venezuela -- openly supported and directly cooperated with the coup that ousted Chavez in the first place. Any other country, their producers would have been brought up on sedition charges. Chavez, on the other hand, used some underhanded legislative tricks to systematically drive them out of business (and even then didn't completely succeed; RCTV still broadcasts on satellite networks, and their vitriol has only gotten worse).

Pretty much every human rights organization in the world is critical of their handling of media and the fact political opponents keep ending up in prison.

That there are still apologists for them at this point is stunning to me.
 
Back
Top Bottom