Church in Lakewood stops woman's funeral because she was gay

[Toni]

I'd like to know how it got that far without Pastor Ray knowing the woman was a lesbian.

The video makes reference of a "remembrance video prior to and that the pastor could have objected then".
I guess he assumed her gayness would not be publically visible during the funeral. So, he's okay with the gayness, just not the open gayness? I'll take the money, just don't make me feel uncomfortable in public?
I guess.

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

No, I'll just go ahead andf hate the sinner too. This moron seems eminently worthy of my hate.

 

[Togo]

Because it is the people, not some amorphous religion. There are Muslims out there slaughtering other people. Plenty of Muslims not doing that. In the US there are Christians protesting gay marriage. There plenty that aren't. The religion isn't fucked, well except Scientology, it is the people that use it to justify their bias, prejudice, and desire for power.

Their prejudice is taught by their religion.

Sure, but that doesn't mean the religion is the problem.

Most bigots are taught bigotry by their parents, that doesn't mean we should ban parenthood. The issue is bigotry, and since there are both non-bigoted religious people, and bigoted non-religious people, the religion doesn't seem to be the deciding factor?

 

[laughing dog]

I think religion can certainly play a factor in teaching/indoctrinating bigotry, especially homophobic bigotry. Gay people are not necessarily identifiable by sight or smell or sound or behavior in ordinary situations. So, if a religion teaches that homosexuality is a sin or evil to its believers or attendants, I can see how people who otherwise would have no opinion on the matter might become bigoted.

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

Their prejudice is taught by their religion.

Sure, but that doesn't mean the religion is the problem.

Most bigots are taught bigotry by their parents, that doesn't mean we should ban parenthood. The issue is bigotry, and since there are both non-bigoted religious people, and bigoted non-religious people, the religion doesn't seem to be the deciding factor?

Of course the religion is the problem. Yes, there are bigoted and non-bigoted religious people, but they're not practising the same religion, are they? Even if there are two people, one bigoted and one non-bigoted, who are taught the same religious tenets, they may not be imbibing/interpreting those religious teachings in the same way. But if the religious teachings say "hate teh gays", it's the religious teachings which are at fault, it's just the non-bigot's good fortune to be someone who rejects that part of the teachings.

 

[Metaphor]

Their prejudice is taught by their religion.

Sure, but that doesn't mean the religion is the problem.

Most bigots are taught bigotry by their parents, that doesn't mean we should ban parenthood. The issue is bigotry, and since there are both non-bigoted religious people, and bigoted non-religious people, the religion doesn't seem to be the deciding factor?

There is no single cause for any complex social phenomenon, so the test is not whether religion is the 'deciding factor'.

The test is: are religious people more likely to be homophobic than non-religious people, holding constant other factors? (Answer: yes). Therefore, religion is a problem.

 

[laughing dog]

Sure, but that doesn't mean the religion is the problem.

Most bigots are taught bigotry by their parents, that doesn't mean we should ban parenthood. The issue is bigotry, and since there are both non-bigoted religious people, and bigoted non-religious people, the religion doesn't seem to be the deciding factor?

There is no single cause for any complex social phenomenon, so the test is not whether religion is the 'deciding factor'.

The test is: are religious people more likely to be homophobic than non-religious people, holding constant other factors? (Answer: yes). Therefore, religion is a problem.

In order for that conclusion to be valid, the premise must hold. I don't see how anyone could hold the other factors constant. In particular, how would one control for those religious people who were homophobes even without religion?

 

[Metaphor]

There is no single cause for any complex social phenomenon, so the test is not whether religion is the 'deciding factor'.

The test is: are religious people more likely to be homophobic than non-religious people, holding constant other factors? (Answer: yes). Therefore, religion is a problem.

In order for that conclusion to be valid, the premise must hold. I don't see how anyone could hold the other factors constant. In particular, how would one control for those religious people who were homophobes even without religion?

You can, of course, hold other factors constant statistically. I'm sure you're familiar with both an analysis of covariance and multiple regression.

And we can also look at the difference between religions (more correctly, divisions of major religions) that specifically teach homophobia and divisions that basically ignore their holy books and don't teach it.

I'd bet the sheep station that religions that specifically teach homophobia leads to more homophobic people than religions that don't specifically teach it.

 

[laughing dog]

In order for that conclusion to be valid, the premise must hold. I don't see how anyone could hold the other factors constant. In particular, how would one control for those religious people who were homophobes even without religion?

You can, of course, hold other factors constant statistically. I'm sure you're familiar with both an analysis of covariance and multiple regression.

Yeah but that requires measurement. If someone is going to be homophobe regardless, then it really isn't fair to hold religion as the cause. For example, if a religion draws homophobes into its sphere, their homophobia is not caused by the religion.

And we can also look at the difference between religions (more correctly, divisions of major religions) that specifically teach homophobia and divisions that basically ignore their holy books and don't teach it.

I'd bet the sheep station that religions that specifically teach homophobia leads to more homophobic people than religions that don't specifically teach it.

Yes, it would be good to know how many of those homophobes would have been homophobes anyways without the religion.

Please do not misunderstand my view. I am confident that there are people whose homophobia is entirely learned and driven by their particular religious beliefs. But there are also those religious homophobes who would still be homophobes without any help or cover from their religion. Which is why I think it is problematic to place the entire blame on a specific religion for specific homophobes (or homophobic actions) without more information.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Because it is the people, not some amorphous religion. There are Muslims out there slaughtering other people. Plenty of Muslims not doing that. In the US there are Christians protesting gay marriage. There plenty that aren't. The religion isn't fucked, well except Scientology, it is the people that use it to justify their bias, prejudice, and desire for power.

I'm not sure why #NotAllMen or not all white people are deemed bad things to bring up in an argument, but not all Christians or not all Muslims are deemed helpful and valid responses.

Excellent point.

And I would add that saying something about Islam or Christianity is not the equivalent of saying something about men or white people. You don't choose your race or gender, and your race and gender don't come with an ideology or dogma.

And yes, the Christian religion is fucked. It really really is. Islam and Christianity are both viruses of the mind with little redeeming qualities that can't be found without the accommpanying toxin. Yes, there is a very wide spectrum on what Christians believe, but they all hold some core tenets (vicarious redemption, faith as a virtue, etc) that are truly fucked. There are some nasty aspects that are #YesAllChristians.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Please do not misunderstand my view. I am confident that there are people whose homophobia is entirely learned and driven by their particular religious beliefs. But there are also those religious homophobes who would still be homophobes without any help or cover from their religion. Which is why I think it is problematic to place the entire blame on a specific religion for specific homophobes (or homophobic actions) without more information.

The easy way to look at that would be to see how many homophobic atheists there are, no?

There are some, due to the ick factor and "otherness" factor, but I really would find it hard to believe that religion isn't the primary cause here, because you can almost count on somebody opposing gay marriage being religious.

 

[Toni]

I'd like to know how it got that far without Pastor Ray knowing the woman was a lesbian.

The video makes reference of a "remembrance video prior to and that the pastor could have objected then".
I guess he assumed her gayness would not be publically visible during the funeral. So, he's okay with the gayness, just not the open gayness? I'll take the money, just don't make me feel uncomfortable in public?
I guess.

Love the sinner, hate the sin is how it goes, I think.

 

[Toni]

Please do not misunderstand my view. I am confident that there are people whose homophobia is entirely learned and driven by their particular religious beliefs. But there are also those religious homophobes who would still be homophobes without any help or cover from their religion. Which is why I think it is problematic to place the entire blame on a specific religion for specific homophobes (or homophobic actions) without more information.

The easy way to look at that would be to see how many homophobic atheists there are, no?

There are some, due to the ick factor and "otherness" factor, but I really would find it hard to believe that religion isn't the primary cause here, because you can almost count on somebody opposing gay marriage being religious.

I don't agree. I've known a number of homophobes who weren't religious at all.

I see it as a separate issue. Plenty of people hate what they don't understand or are simply unfamiliar with. A great deal of the issues come from ignorance and a fear of the unknown. Then there's misinformation: some incorrectly associate being gay with child molestation. Like I said: ignorance. Don't get me wrong: plenty of people are happy to use religion as an excuse for all kinds of things. But religion is the excuse and not the root cause.

 

[Togo]

Please do not misunderstand my view. I am confident that there are people whose homophobia is entirely learned and driven by their particular religious beliefs. But there are also those religious homophobes who would still be homophobes without any help or cover from their religion. Which is why I think it is problematic to place the entire blame on a specific religion for specific homophobes (or homophobic actions) without more information.

The easy way to look at that would be to see how many homophobic atheists there are, no?

There are some, due to the ick factor and "otherness" factor, but I really would find it hard to believe that religion isn't the primary cause here, because you can almost count on somebody opposing gay marriage being religious.

We've got plenty of homophobia amongst atheists and secularists over here.

 

[laughing dog]

Please do not misunderstand my view. I am confident that there are people whose homophobia is entirely learned and driven by their particular religious beliefs. But there are also those religious homophobes who would still be homophobes without any help or cover from their religion. Which is why I think it is problematic to place the entire blame on a specific religion for specific homophobes (or homophobic actions) without more information.

The easy way to look at that would be to see how many homophobic atheists there are, no?

No. That does not all address the issue whatsoever because it cannot be used to make any comparison with those religious homophobes who were (or would have been) homophobes without claiming to adhere to a particular religion.

 

[ronburgundy]

Their prejudice is taught by their religion.

Sure, but that doesn't mean the religion is the problem.

Most bigots are taught bigotry by their parents, that doesn't mean we should ban parenthood. The issue is bigotry, and since there are both non-bigoted religious people, and bigoted non-religious people, the religion doesn't seem to be the deciding factor?

Bigotry is reliably correlated with religiosity. Abrahamic monotheism is rooted in bigotry and intolerance. It is among the core primary purposes of the religion, and a central reason for the notion that ethics flow from God and that salvation comes via worship of him and his sent saviors.

Religion is not root of bigotry, it a tool created to promote and inflame it, and to provide moral cover for it. That makes it a big part of the problem, just as much as someone who arms, aids, and hides a murderer is a big part of the blame for the harm the murderer does, despite not being the root of the problem.

 

[ZiprHead]

If you'd like to make your feelings known, here is the church web site.

http://www.nhmofdenver.com/

 

[ronburgundy]

If you'd like to make your feelings known, here is the church web site.

http://www.nhmofdenver.com/

Wow. It takes about 2 seconds on that webpage to tell its hard core fundie which equals bigot 99% of the time. What were they thinking holding the service there? I am guessing is was this woman's own bigoted fundy family responsible for the church choice.