Collective Guilt

[steve_bank]

My father was not racist but two of my uncles were certainly racists and open about it. Do I feel guilty in anyway about it being in my white family, no.

Do I feel a collective guilt as a white person for past grievances, no. Do I wear a crown of thorns, no.

Do I feel past and present racial grievances need to be addressed, yes.

I do not walk around carrying the weight of actions done by others.

 

[Jayjay]

A hundred years from now most diseases will have cures, human life span is greatly extended, and you can have your brain scanned and live forever in virtual reality.

So every single person living now is getting a shitty deal compared to people who aren't even born yet. No reason to feel guilty about being born in the top 1% or whatever, because that's still just a participation trophy in the grand scheme of things.

 

[Trausti]

My father was not racist but two of my uncles were certainly racists and open about it. Do I feel guilty in anyway about it being in my white family, no.

Do I feel a collective guilt as a white person for past grievances, no. Do I wear a crown of thorns, no.

Do I feel past and present racial grievances need to be addressed, yes.

I do not walk around carrying the weight of actions done by others.

You think Mongolians feel any guilt about their ancestors? Neither should you.

 

[Patooka]

I predict nothing but good things for this thread. It could very well be the most productive discussion in the history of the internet.

 

[repoman]

If Mongolians had maintained top dog status would there be Mongolian Privilege as something to combat?

At this point their history is a consolation prize.

 

[Trausti]

If Mongolians had maintained top dog status would there be Mongolian Privilege as something to combat?

At this point their history is a consolation prize.

Nearly every people in history tried to be top dog. To try to shame someone’s top dog ancestors because you ain’t got any is sour grapes.

 

[JohnG]

I predict nothing but good things for this thread. It could very well be the most productive discussion in the history of the internet.

Fully agree, We're off to a great start.

 

[repoman]

A hundred years from now most diseases will have cures, human life span is greatly extended, and you can have your brain scanned and live forever in virtual reality.

So every single person living now is getting a shitty deal compared to people who aren't even born yet. No reason to feel guilty about being born in the top 1% or whatever, because that's still just a participation trophy in the grand scheme of things.

I hope you are right, quite the times we are living in with both amazing technology and yet tons of people are eating terrible food and getting diabetes and young ages.

So many people strung out on dopamine boosts.

Will there not be enough gas in the tank for energy to give all of this cool technology to everyone?

1939 World's Fair. Elysium or a Mad Max future?

 

[TV and credit cards]

My father was not racist but two of my uncles were certainly racists and open about it. Do I feel guilty in anyway about it being in my white family, no.

Do I feel a collective guilt as a white person for past grievances, no. Do I wear a crown of thorns, no.

Do I feel past and present racial grievances need to be addressed, yes.

I do not walk around carrying the weight of actions done by others.

Yesterday’s racism.

I think today’s goal is empathy.
While white person can never fully appreciate what it is like to live a black life, yesterday’s racism should not be used as an excuse to ignore the advantages and disadvantages of today.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Do I feel past and present racial grievances need to be addressed, yes.
.

What do you mean by this? What concretely does it entail? To me it looks like you're saying that you don't feel guilt but you like to pretend you do, or something equally confusing. I don't get it. Either you're guilty or not. You are the collective. If the collective is guilty of something, then so are you.

 

[untermensche]

The idea is not to feel guilty.

The idea is to feel compassion for those trapped in a racist society with racist institutions and try to change society.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I think that white guilt is just narcissism. It's for pathetic white people trying to inflate their own importance by admitting to various crimes. Only so that they get to feel that they could have committed the crimes if only they'd wanted to. No they couldn't.

American slavery was initiated by colonial subjects to the British crown. The number of white people who benefitted from the slavery is tiny. Of those living today very few has benefitted one iota.

This is a common misconception about how wealth works. When the Nazi's seized the Jewish gold or Idi Amin seized the Asian's property they didn't make any money from it. It was almost immediately a loss to the German and Ugandan economies. The concentration camp system was a net loss to the German economy. Stalin thought the Gulag slaves would boost the Soviet economy. Nope. All it did was to make USSR lose money.

The white people who made money from African slavery mostly wasted it, and it's questionable if it has benefited any white people today. Current American wealth creation comes from the industrial economies in the north. It's quite likely that the white people who were engaged in the slave sector, were made relatively poorer by it, compared to their northern white nationals, because they were in the slave trade.

My point is that we can make a group of people impoverished without it actually benefitting anybody in the long run. In the long run, those whites who engaged in the slave trade, most likely, aren't among the elites of the current US economy.

edit: The clever thing about the modern capitalist economy is that it makes each slave into it's own slaver. We use the threat of not keeping up with the Joneses as an incentive to make people a hell of a lot harder than slaves ever did. And even better, we don't even have to guard them or punish them. The workers today do it to themselves. It's a brilliant system that outperforms a slave economy every time.

That makes it very hard to calculate what the current white Americans benefitted from American slavery. Most likely it was nothing. Most likely the transatlantic slave trade was a stupid idea that never should have begun. Started by greedy and stupid short sighted colonials who couldn't do maths for shit.

 

[untermensche]

The number of white people who benefitted from the slavery is tiny.

The entire US economy had cotton as it's foundation.

Slavery is what gave everybody in US society their standard of living.

It benefited the entire society. North and South.

The only people who did not prosper because of it were the slaves.

 

[Harry Bosch]

The number of white people who benefitted from the slavery is tiny.

The entire US economy had cotton as it's foundation.

Slavery is what gave everybody in US society their standard of living.

It benefited the entire society. North and South.

The only people who did not prosper because of it were the slaves.

The entire US economy? That's a bold statement. Do you have evidence for this?

 

[Gospel]

Do I feel past and present racial grievances need to be addressed, yes.
.

What do you mean by this? What concretely does it entail? To me it looks like you're saying that you don't feel guilt but you like to pretend you do, or something equally confusing. I don't get it. Either you're guilty or not. You are the collective. If the collective is guilty of something, then so are you.

The collective is not guilty of crimes committed by individuals within the said collective. However, when living individuals that have been wronged by the guilty individuals seek a lawful remedy, the nonguilty can either help if they so choose or expect resistance if they choose to stand in the way.

 

[Bronzeage]

My father was not racist but two of my uncles were certainly racists and open about it. Do I feel guilty in anyway about it being in my white family, no.

Do I feel a collective guilt as a white person for past grievances, no. Do I wear a crown of thorns, no.

Do I feel past and present racial grievances need to be addressed, yes.

I do not walk around carrying the weight of actions done by others.

No one is asking you to carry the weight of actions done by others, but here is a question. What benefits of the actions of others do you enjoy?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Do I feel past and present racial grievances need to be addressed, yes.
.

What do you mean by this? What concretely does it entail? To me it looks like you're saying that you don't feel guilt but you like to pretend you do, or something equally confusing. I don't get it. Either you're guilty or not. You are the collective. If the collective is guilty of something, then so are you.

The collective is not guilty of crimes committed by individuals within the said collective. However, when living individuals that have been wronged by the guilty individuals seek a lawful remedy, the nonguilty can either help if they so choose or expect resistance if they choose to stand in the way.

Sure they are. If you're not, you're not part of the collective. That's the point of being part of a collective. A collective is a group of free individuals who are going together to act as one unit. But they're doing it willingly. Collectives are egalitarian with shared guilt or benefits. As opposed to a hierarchical organization, like a kingdom, or something more nebulous like a nation.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Do I feel past and present racial grievances need to be addressed, yes.
.

What do you mean by this? What concretely does it entail? To me it looks like you're saying that you don't feel guilt but you like to pretend you do, or something equally confusing. I don't get it. Either you're guilty or not.

My neighbor got in a car accident with a drunk driver. I do not feel guilty about it, as I don't drink and drive. I think the grievance needs to be addressed.

Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[untermensche]

The number of white people who benefitted from the slavery is tiny.

The entire US economy had cotton as it's foundation.

Slavery is what gave everybody in US society their standard of living.

It benefited the entire society. North and South.

The only people who did not prosper because of it were the slaves.

The entire US economy? That's a bold statement. Do you have evidence for this?

The invisible hand still existed in those days if you understand Adam Smith's point.

Because travel was primitive the rich spent locally which meant they fueled a local economy.

In those days many of the rich were those who dealt in cotton and slavery

This was a pre-oil, pre-Industrial Age society.

Innovation was fueled by the wealth created in the cotton or slave trade.

All in a society benefit from the innovation made within the society.

 

[Gospel]

The collective is not guilty of crimes committed by individuals within the said collective. However, when living individuals that have been wronged by the guilty individuals seek a lawful remedy, the nonguilty can either help if they so choose or expect resistance if they choose to stand in the way.

Sure they are. If you're not, you're not part of the collective. That's the point of being part of a collective. A collective is a group of free individuals who are going together to act as one unit. But they're doing it willingly. Collectives are egalitarian with shared guilt or benefits. As opposed to a hierarchical organization, like a kingdom, or something more nebulous like a nation.

You seem to have a very narrow understanding of adjectives & nouns. Everything you've mentioned from collectives, egalitarianism, guilt to benefits carry nuances you've managed to pigeonhole; forming the horrendous spitball barreling across this messageboard.

Exhibit A: an individual person in a collective is no longer acting as a group when said individual does something the rest of the group did not do.
Exhibit B: feeling guilt does not automatically mean that you are guilty
Exhibit C: not all collectives are egalitarian; a solid argument can be made that the USA is an elitist country
Exhibit D: not all collectives consists of entirely free individuals (I'd give an example but a mob of white people will jump down my throat for bringing racism/slavery into the discussion)