Collective Guilt

[Trausti]

Same for whites today, No shame for neing white, but culturally we are somewhat guided now by the abuses of the past.

One of the things that makes White/Western people WEIRD is that they uniquely have an out group preference. No other people would feel shame about their ancestors’ bad behavior.

 

[Gospel]

Same for whites today, No shame for neing white, but culturally we are somewhat guided now by the abuses of the past.

One of the things that makes White/Western people WEIRD is that they uniquely have an out group preference. No other people would feel shame about their ancestors’ bad behavior.

That's because what they call shame others call reflecting and learning from the past.

 

[Trausti]

Same for whites today, No shame for neing white, but culturally we are somewhat guided now by the abuses of the past.

One of the things that makes White/Western people WEIRD is that they uniquely have an out group preference. No other people would feel shame about their ancestors’ bad behavior.

That's because what they call shame others call reflecting and learning from the past.

Or it’s a result of the Church prohibition on cousin marriage and the pattern of delayed marriage that arose in the middle ages. The out group preference is a bizarre characteristic of White/Western people.

 

[Trausti]

The Japanese - no shame for their ancestors.

Mimizuka

 

[Trausti]

Statue of Madame Tinubu in Nigeria. No one is tearing this down.

 

[Gospel]

That's because what they call shame others call reflecting and learning from the past.

Or it’s a result of the Church prohibition on cousin marriage and the pattern of delayed marriage that arose in the middle ages. The out group preference is a bizarre characteristic of White/Western people.

Hmm, I never thought about that. That was taking keep it in the family to the extreme.

 

[untermensche]

The Japanese - no shame for their ancestors.

The Mimizuka was dedicated September 28, 1597

That is real history.

Unlike the fake history created about some traitors that lost a war they started to preserve slavery.

Statues put up by 20th Century racists to celebrate their own racist tendencies.

Not history.

Propaganda. Like putting up a statue of Stalin.

 

[Trausti]

The Japanese - no shame for their ancestors.

The Mimizuka was dedicated September 28, 1597

That is real history.

Unlike the fake history created about some traitors that lost a war they started to preserve slavery.

Statues put up by 20th Century racists to celebrate their own racist tendencies.

Not history.

Propaganda. Like putting up a statue of Stalin.

Ya see Gospel? Okay for out groups to behave badly. But of our own, shame, shame. White people are WEIRD.

 

[Trausti]

That's because what they call shame others call reflecting and learning from the past.

Or it’s a result of the Church prohibition on cousin marriage and the pattern of delayed marriage that arose in the middle ages. The out group preference is a bizarre characteristic of White/Western people.

Hmm, I never thought about that. That was taking keep it in the family to the extreme.

I think the reason for the Church prohibiting cousin marriage was a mix of Roman tradition and an effort to destroy European tribes; thus making Rome supreme. The result was an out group preference. In places were cousin marriage is still common, like Iraq, the tribes still exist and democracy a bit difficult.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_tribes_in_Iraq

 

[Gospel]

That is real history.

Unlike the fake history created about some traitors that lost a war they started to preserve slavery.

Statues put up by 20th Century racists to celebrate their own racist tendencies.

Not history.

Propaganda. Like putting up a statue of Stalin.

Ya see Gospel? Okay for out groups to behave badly. But of our own, shame, shame. White people are WEIRD.

I'm not sure that untermensche's comment is a good example of what I think you're getting at. I just read a little into the Mimizuka link you posted and it said:

"In the 1970s under the Park Chung-hee administration, some of the officials of the South Korean government asked Japan to level the monument.[9] However, most South Koreans said that the mound should stay in Japan as a reminder of past savagery". If black people wanted the monuments to stay up as a constant reminder of savagery they wouldn't be getting torn down either. However, there are certain US Citizens that don't agree with it being repurposed for that but instead celebrate the savagery. thus why black folks said, "Oh hell naw".

 

[Gospel]

Hmm, I never thought about that. That was taking keep it in the family to the extreme.

I think the reason for the Church prohibiting cousin marriage was a mix of Roman tradition and an effort to destroy European tribes; thus making Rome supreme. The result was an out group preference. In places were cousin marriage is still common, like Iraq, the tribes still exist and democracy a bit difficult.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_tribes_in_Iraq

That is a very interesting take. I can't agree for certain (don't know enough) but it would be foolish for me not to recognize that major societal events can have effects that last for generations (look at my black community).

 

[repoman]

That is real history.

Unlike the fake history created about some traitors that lost a war they started to preserve slavery.

Statues put up by 20th Century racists to celebrate their own racist tendencies.

Not history.

Propaganda. Like putting up a statue of Stalin.

Ya see Gospel? Okay for out groups to behave badly. But of our own, shame, shame. White people are WEIRD.

I'm not sure that untermensche's comment is a good example of what I think you're getting at. I just read a little into the Mimizuka link you posted and it said:

"In the 1970s under the Park Chung-hee administration, some of the officials of the South Korean government asked Japan to level the monument.[9] However, most South Koreans said that the mound should stay in Japan as a reminder of past savagery". If black people wanted the monuments to stay up as a constant reminder of savagery they wouldn't be getting torn down either. However, there are certain US Citizens that don't agree with it being repurposed for that but instead celebrate the savagery. thus why black folks said, "Oh hell naw".

Toyotomi Hideyoshi was a badass who stopped Christianity in its tracks in Japan, something this forum should be behind.

 

[Trausti]

I'm not sure that untermensche's comment is a good example of what I think you're getting at. I just read a little into the Mimizuka link you posted and it said:

"In the 1970s under the Park Chung-hee administration, some of the officials of the South Korean government asked Japan to level the monument.[9] However, most South Koreans said that the mound should stay in Japan as a reminder of past savagery". If black people wanted the monuments to stay up as a constant reminder of savagery they wouldn't be getting torn down either. However, there are certain US Citizens that don't agree with it being repurposed for that but instead celebrate the savagery. thus why black folks said, "Oh hell naw".

Toyotomi Hideyoshi was a badass who stopped Christianity in its tracks in Japan, something this forum should be behind.

He’s also responsible for the massacre of a kimchi load of Koreans. And the Japanese are okay with that.

 

[steve_bank]

Same for whites today, No shame for neing white, but culturally we are somewhat guided now by the abuses of the past.

One of the things that makes White/Western people WEIRD is that they uniquely have an out group preference. No other people would feel shame about their ancestors’ bad behavior.

The flip side is taking pride in past bad actins.

Descendents of those who fought on the side of the south seeing fighting over a right to slavery as something to be proud of.

 

[Swammerdami]

Has anyone here expressed feelings of guilt for injustices committed before they were born? Or is the whole notion of "collective guilt" just a meme developed into a straw-man argument against reform?

Most of us would agree that some institutions and practices hinder opportunities and fairness for some Americans, especially blacks. From there it is an easy semantic shift to "Society shares some blame for unequal opportunity"; and then to "We, as members of society, need to work harder to address these issues." When "we", as citizens, employers, voters, or authorities fail to address these issues, it's an easy semantic shift to the phrase "collective guilt."

But that's all it is: Semantic blurring. To use such casual phrasing to reach a conclusion like "I am not guilty of owning slaves, therefore I take no responsibility for addressing today's inequities" is clearly a cop-out.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Collective guilt, Level One: Trump voters of 2016
Level Two (No Redemption): Trump voters of 2016 + 2020

 

[KeepTalking]

That is real history.

Unlike the fake history created about some traitors that lost a war they started to preserve slavery.

Statues put up by 20th Century racists to celebrate their own racist tendencies.

Not history.

Propaganda. Like putting up a statue of Stalin.

Ya see Gospel? Okay for out groups to behave badly. But of our own, shame, shame. White people are WEIRD.

I read this as: "We can't stop being assholes until those assholes on the other side of the world stop being assholes."

This is the shitty fucking reasoning that keeps humanity circling the drain.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I'd also like to point out that European imperialism was a pointless endeavor and nothing but a tremendous waste of money and resources. It was a net loss.

If European countries hadn't tried taking over the world, they would have been richer today.

European wealth today was NOT built on the backs of their colonial subjects. It came from shifting to an industrial economy.

 

[Politesse]

Has anyone here expressed feelings of guilt for injustices committed before they were born? Or is the whole notion of "collective guilt" just a meme developed into a straw-man argument against reform?

Bingo.

 

[Politesse]

I'd also like to point out that European imperialism was a pointless endeavor and nothing but a tremendous waste of money and resources. It was a net loss.

This is completely absurd and bravely counterfactual. Even today, even the most rudimentary of maps of resource flow show the obvious stamp of colonial history. The industrial revolution and mass extraction of resources from colonial properties aren't at all unconnected to one another.