• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Coming from Nothing?

If you mean the 2nd model in the OP, then yes. But it was not meant to be this universe.

And my issue is about bilby's claim about the temporal dimension being equivalent to a spatial dimension. Clearly there seem to be differences in this 4d universe.

That's not clear at all.

The block universe is completely deterministic; but there is no observation you can make that shows our universe is not, so that's not a problem.
There is a very strong consensus that the more popular theories of quantum mechanics implies indeterminism.

You presumably have no issue with the idea that the past is immutable; there is no clear reason why that cannot apply to the future as well. Indeed, to posit that it is not - that the future is fundamentally different in nature from the past - is adding a huge amount of needless complexity.

It's either that, or the consciousness is fundamentally different from the rest of nature. Either way, there is something more to talk about than just 4 spatial dimensions.
 
That's not clear at all.

The block universe is completely deterministic; but there is no observation you can make that shows our universe is not, so that's not a problem.
There is a very strong consensus that the more popular theories of quantum mechanics implies indeterminism.

You presumably have no issue with the idea that the past is immutable; there is no clear reason why that cannot apply to the future as well. Indeed, to posit that it is not - that the future is fundamentally different in nature from the past - is adding a huge amount of needless complexity.

It's either that, or the consciousness is fundamentally different from the rest of nature. Either way, there is something more to talk about than just 4 spatial dimensions.

Three spatial dimensions plus time.

Time is different. But not sufficiently different as to support your claims here.

Consciousness is just a process. Duality is ruled out by quantum field theory.

That fact in no way implies that past and future are fundamentally different in their nature. The only reason to think that is that you like the idea. But the universe is not constrained by what you do or do not like.

If you want to claim that a block universe is not possible, then prove it.

Find a testable hypothesis that discriminates between the block universe and your preferred model; and show the results that indicate that the block universe doesn't exist.

Personally I doubt you can even get the first part of this - the block universe maps precicely to any other realistic model. Your task is analogous to trying to find a point in a Cartesian grid that cannot be described using polar coordinates.

My model is juSt a different, but equally valid, way to describe reality.
 
There is a very strong consensus that the more popular theories of quantum mechanics implies indeterminism.

You presumably have no issue with the idea that the past is immutable; there is no clear reason why that cannot apply to the future as well. Indeed, to posit that it is not - that the future is fundamentally different in nature from the past - is adding a huge amount of needless complexity.

It's either that, or the consciousness is fundamentally different from the rest of nature. Either way, there is something more to talk about than just 4 spatial dimensions.

Three spatial dimensions plus time.

Time is different.

I agree.

But not sufficiently different as to support your claims here.

I am not the one making claims. There are some reasons to believe otherwise. You have the burden of proof.

Consciousness is just a process. Duality is ruled out by quantum field theory.

Do you have any idea about what you are saying here? This is so ridiculous that I don't even know what to say.

That fact in no way implies that past and future are fundamentally different in their nature. The only reason to think that is that you like the idea. But the universe is not constrained by what you do or do not like.

:rolleyes:

If you want to claim that a block universe is not possible, then prove it.

Find a testable hypothesis that discriminates between the block universe and your preferred model; and show the results that indicate that the block universe doesn't exist.
Pay closer attention to what my position is here. You are the one with the specific claim.

Personally I doubt you can even get the first part of this - the block universe maps precicely to any other realistic model. Your task is analogous to trying to find a point in a Cartesian grid that cannot be described using polar coordinates.

Don't you realize how douchey comments like this make you look? What is wrong with you?
 
There is a very strong consensus that the more popular theories of quantum mechanics implies indeterminism.

You presumably have no issue with the idea that the past is immutable; there is no clear reason why that cannot apply to the future as well. Indeed, to posit that it is not - that the future is fundamentally different in nature from the past - is adding a huge amount of needless complexity.

It's either that, or the consciousness is fundamentally different from the rest of nature. Either way, there is something more to talk about than just 4 spatial dimensions.

Three spatial dimensions plus time.

Time is different.

I agree.

But not sufficiently different as to support your claims here.

I am not the one making claims. There are some reasons to believe otherwise. You have the burden of proof.

Consciousness is just a process. Duality is ruled out by quantum field theory.

Do you have any idea about what you are saying here? This is so ridiculous that I don't even know what to say.
Don't you realize how douchey comments like this make you look? What is wrong with you? ;)

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5Fel1VKEN8[/YOUTUBE]
That fact in no way implies that past and future are fundamentally different in their nature. The only reason to think that is that you like the idea. But the universe is not constrained by what you do or do not like.

:rolleyes:

If you want to claim that a block universe is not possible, then prove it.

Find a testable hypothesis that discriminates between the block universe and your preferred model; and show the results that indicate that the block universe doesn't exist.
Pay closer attention to what my position is here. You are the one with the specific claim.

Personally I doubt you can even get the first part of this - the block universe maps precicely to any other realistic model. Your task is analogous to trying to find a point in a Cartesian grid that cannot be described using polar coordinates.

Don't you realize how douchey comments like this make you look? What is wrong with you?

There is nothing wrong with me - I am simply putting forward the very straightforward idea that time can be considered to be a dimension in space-time. It's not even my idea - it's quite an old and well established concept. And it implies that, if we consider the dynamic universe of n dimensions plus time, then we can equally well describe this as n+1 dimensions, with no time - which must, in the absence of any further dimensions in which things could change, be static and unchanging. And this, of course, is true for ANY n.

My 'claim' which you want me to defend is that there is NO WAY to distinguish between the '3d+time' dynamic model, and the '4d' static model - they are not different in any way. This is the null hypothesis. You can either accept it, or argue for a more complex model of your choosing; but I have no burden to prove that the least complex possible hypothesis is right.

On the other hand, it seems futile to discuss any of this with someone who isn't able to grasp the concept of infinity, and who thinks that transfinites belong to the set of natural numbers. You are, as usual, out of your depth; and as usual, your response to simple statements of fact, that you cannot grasp, is to accuse the people who present those facts of being 'douchey'.

Get over it - NOBODY understands everything. Finding something you are incapable of understanding is NOT evidence that you are being picked on.
 
There is nothing wrong with me - I am simply putting forward the very straightforward idea that time can be considered to be a dimension in space-time. It's not even my idea - it's quite an old and well established concept. And it implies that, if we consider the dynamic universe of n dimensions plus time, then we can equally well describe this as n+1 dimensions, with no time - which must, in the absence of any further dimensions in which things could change, be static and unchanging. And this, of course, is true for ANY n.

My 'claim' which you want me to defend is that there is NO WAY to distinguish between the '3d+time' dynamic model, and the '4d' static model - they are not different in any way. This is the null hypothesis. You can either accept it, or argue for a more complex model of your choosing; but I have no burden to prove that the least complex possible hypothesis is right.

Your certainty is unjustified. Your claims and your grasp of this is so scattered that it hasn't even approached wrong. It's embarrassing.

On the other hand, it seems futile to discuss any of this with someone who isn't able to grasp the concept of infinity, and who thinks that transfinites belong to the set of natural numbers. You are, as usual, out of your depth; and as usual, your response to simple statements of fact, that you cannot grasp, is to accuse the people who present those facts of being 'douchey'.
Your "facts" as you put them are not true, and it is you that is douchey.
 
Your certainty is unjustified. Your claims and your grasp of this is so scattered that it hasn't even approached wrong. It's embarrassing.

On the other hand, it seems futile to discuss any of this with someone who isn't able to grasp the concept of infinity, and who thinks that transfinites belong to the set of natural numbers. You are, as usual, out of your depth; and as usual, your response to simple statements of fact, that you cannot grasp, is to accuse the people who present those facts of being 'douchey'.
Your "facts" as you put them are not true, and it is you that is douchey.

Well I really have to concede in the face of such a detailed and well thought out rebuttal. :rolleyes:

Unless, of course, I bring out the big guns of formal logic, and respond with the well regarded and unassailable counter claim "I know you are, but what am I?".
 
Agreed.
However, without time, there's no causality.
Wait, what?

Who is imagining a scenario without time? Time is explicitly a part of our model - it is the fourth dimension of the model we are discussing. There's no problem here caused by the absence of time; time is right there in the set of dimensions - it hasn't gone away, we just shifted our perspective so that we can see all of it.
A memory would no longer be the end result of a process of memorising, coming after a process of perceiving etc. The thought of having been at a birthday party would be entirely an illusion. The memory would be real but no longer what we think of as a memory. I would just be a spatial pattern somehow including the impression of representing a past event. So, basically, our lives, our existence, would be entirely illusory. Also, and it's a bit more embarrassing, the structure of this timeless universe would make no sense at all. Certain parts of it (memories) would relate to other parts (past events) without that one would have been caused by the other. There would be this relation but it would be an entirely fictional relation. Essentially another illusion. Consciousness itself couldn't possibly be explained. It would be a mere fact. Very real but unexplainable. Which may well be the situation in any case but at least we tend to think of it as somehow explainable. And I think one couldn't prove that the universe is really a timeless, four-dimensional, entirely spatial universe... The illusion of time would be part of the reality of it. At best we could have the illusion to have explained things. Which we do to some extent.
EB
These objections are baseless, as time is NOT absent from our model.
Oh Ok, I thought I had read "static" somewhere in your post.

bilby said:
is indestinguishable from a static four dimensional system
Ya' just wanna have your cake and eat it is all.
EB

You appear not to understand dimensionality is all.
Dimensionality what?
EB
 
Imagine that there were no time, and that the universe was simply frozen in whatever state it is in, say, the present. So I am asking you to imagine a universe that never had a past or future; there is no time, there never was time and never will be time (I realize that if time doesn't exist, then to say time would never happen would imply time exists). So imagine your state right now and the state of the universe; that would be all there ever can be.

It wouldn't have come from anything; it would have come from nothing.

Now think about time and space as a four dimensional structure instead of the static 3 dimensional structure, and assume that's all there is or ever will be (ditto to what I said in brackets above). Like a 3 dimensional freeze frame of the universe with no time, a four dimensional universe would not have a beginning, end or boundary but would be limited in a temporal dimension and 3 spatial dimensions - it would just be a four dimensional object that exists.

It wouldn't have come from anything; it would have come from nothing.

Come from anything? Come from nothing? What would the phrase "come from" even mean if all existence was confined to this single freeze frame. If it would "come from" anything it would come from itself, wouldn't it?
 
For all of time, there has been something. Even if the only thing was time. There was never nothing.

If there is no change, nothing TO change, there is no possibility of also having time.

What time is it?

That never changing moment.
 
Quantum: Except it doesn't seem to apply to processes

Why not?

When is the photon going to escape from the electron. We know that that event will take place. We can't know when. Time is supported to be continuous, but, with quantum events we have order (this then that). At the quantum level when is uncertain.
 
Back
Top Bottom