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Compatibilism: What's that About?



1. No one has power over the facts of the past and the laws of nature.
2. No one has power over the fact that the facts of the past and the laws of nature entail every fact of the future (i.e., determinism is true).
3. Therefore, no one has power over the facts of the future.



The laws of nature entail every fact of the future?

This is why talking with DBT is a waste of time. He repeats this stuff like a mantra, but as I have pointed out a million times, the so-called “laws” of nature describe what happens in the world. They do not prescribe what happens in the world. If he thinks that they do, I challenge him to PROVE IT. He has ignored this challenge every time I have brought it up. It’s as if he never reads what anyone writes and all his answers are pre-formed on a save-get key.
 


1. No one has power over the facts of the past and the laws of nature.
2. No one has power over the fact that the facts of the past and the laws of nature entail every fact of the future (i.e., determinism is true).
3. Therefore, no one has power over the facts of the future.



The laws of nature entail every fact of the future?

This is why talking with DBT is a waste of time. He repeats this stuff like a mantra, but as I have pointed out a million times, the so-called “laws” of nature describe what happens in the world. They do not prescribe what happens in the world. If he thinks that they do, I challenge him to PROVE IT. He has ignored this challenge every time I have brought it up. It’s as if he never reads what anyone writes and all his answers are pre-formed on a save-get key.
Essentially, such a view demands, as a law of nature, a "just-so law", "the rest of the laws only make sense or work in context of the given initial condition given just so".

To which I say [insert rude noises]
 
My point is simple. Causal necessity does not change anything in any meaningful or relevant way. All events are always the result of prior causes. And this happens to include the "free will" event. Free will is an event in which a person decides for themselves what they will do, while free of coercion and undue influence.

All causally necessary events actually happen in physical reality. Even mental events correspond to physical brain processes which are happening in physical reality. So, when choosing happens, it is really happening, as a physical event within a physical brain.

The brain organizes sensory data into a symbolic model of reality. It represents this reality with language and sensory images. With this model, it imagines possible futures (what I can do and what can happen) and possible pasts (what I could have done and what could have happened). It forms plans and sets its intent upon doing specific things (what I will do), either right now (I will have the Chef Salad for dinner) or in the future (my "last will and testament").

Our presumption, that all events are reliably caused, comes from our daily observation of how things happen. I press the "H" key on my keyboard (cause) and an "h" appears in the text (effect). My ability (freedom) to type my thoughts requires a reliable keyboard. If pressing the keys caused random letters to appear in the text, my freedom to type my thoughts would be gone.

Every freedom we have, to do anything at all, requires reliable cause and effect. And this applies to the reliability of our thinking brains as much as it does upon the reliability of our computer keyboards.

Consider the notion of determinism. Determinism asserts that all events are causally necessary from any prior point in the past. Causal necessity is derived from the fact of ordinary cause and effect. One event causes another event which causes other events, ad infinitum. In theory (but definitely not in practice), we could trace a history of prior causes all the way back to the Big Bang (or earlier, depending upon your cosmology).

For example, if I roll the bowling ball just so, it will cause all of the pins to fall down. But, how did I happen to be in a bowling alley in the first place? There will be a history of prior causes that led to me being in that place at that time. If we go back farther, we know that there will be a history of prior causes that led to my birth, and my parents birth, and to the evolution of the human race, and the first single celled organisms, and eventually to the Big Bang, a convenient stopping point.

Now, back to the reliability of our thinking brains. Some people, called "hard determinists", would suggest to us that it was not really us that bowled a "strike" (all ten pins falling on the first roll), but rather that it was the Big Bang that actually rolled the strike. The Big Bang would deserve the pat on the back from our bowling team members, and not us. They would argue that our skilled roll of the bowling ball was causally inevitable from the point of the Big Bang forward, so we would deserve no credit for the hours of practice we spent developing our bowling skills.

Basically, they are saying that causal necessity implies that it was not us, but something else that bowled the strike. (We don't often hear a discussion of bowling in the determinism "versus" free will debate. But this is not at all absurd, because we commonly hear the hard determinist using examples involving billiard balls and dominoes).

But the principle is the same. The hard determinist will claim that it was not us, but something else, that chose to order the Chef Salad rather than the Steak for dinner. They claim that "choosing" isn't actually happening in physical reality, which is exactly like suggesting that "bowling" isn't really happening in physical reality.

Choosing, like bowling, definitely happens in physical reality. Choosing happens in our brains. Bowling happens in a bowling alley. But both are actual events that actually happen.

The term "inevitable" is defined in the Oxford English Dictionary as: "That cannot be avoided; not admitting of escape or evasion; unavoidable. In extended use: that cannot fail or is bound to occur, appear, be used, etc.; that is inherent (in) or naturally belongs to (see also quot. 1893)."

If an event is inevitable, then it will necessarily happen. It cannot be avoided. If I bowled a strike, then, given causal necessity, it was inevitable that I would bowl that strike. If I chose to order the Chef Salad rather than the Steak, then it was inevitable that I would be making that choice myself.

Rather than making choosing impossible, the notion of causal necessity makes choosing inevitable. It is an event that must happen, an event that cannot be avoided. My consideration of the Chef Salad was inevitable. My consideration of the Steak was inevitable. My choosing the salad rather than the steak, because I had bacon and eggs for breakfast and a double cheeseburger for lunch, was inevitable.

And, because it was inevitable that I would not be subject to coercion or undue influence while making that choice, it was inevitable that it would be a choice of my own free will.

When we think of something being "inevitable", we usually imply that it is beyond our control. But within the context of causal necessity, the inevitable also includes the events in which we exercise control by choosing what we will do. Our controlling the events that are within our control, is also inevitable.

Our inevitable reasons, our inevitable goals, our inevitable beliefs and values, our inevitable thoughts and feelings, our inevitable genetic dispositions and prior life experiences, are the inevitable causes of our own inevitable decisions.

When we take causal necessity/inevitability seriously, we discover that all events are always inevitable. It is a background constant of our universe. It is something we take for granted. And, assuming it is a universal constant, it becomes unnecessary to explicitly state it. Like any constant that appears on both sides of an equation, we can subtract it from both sides without affecting the outcome.

Thus, our more complex statement reduces to a much simpler one:
Our reasons, our goals, our beliefs and values, our thoughts and feelings, our genetic dispositions and prior life experiences -- basically all of the things that make us who and what we are -- are the causes our decisions.

Universal causal necessity/inevitability doesn't actually change anything that happens or how anything was caused to happen. It simply points out that there is a history of prior causes behind every event.

We usually only care about the most meaningful and relevant causes of an event. A meaningful cause efficiently explains why an event happened. A relevant cause is one that we might be able to do something about. These are usually the most direct causes, the ones closest to the event. As we trace backward through the causal chain the causes become less meaningful and more incidental.

So, when someone robs a bank, we're not really interested in the Big Bang, but instead concentrate upon how the robber happened to make that choice and what we might do to discourage him from continuing to make such choices.

1. No one has power over the facts of the past and the laws of nature.
2. No one has power over the fact that the facts of the past and the laws of nature entail every fact of the future (i.e., determinism is true).
3. Therefore, no one has power over the facts of the future.

1. I am a fact of the past and the laws of nature.
2. I entail certain facts of the future by my choices.
3. I need not exercise control over the laws of nature, because I happen to be an embodiment of those laws, which gives me power over facts of the future that fall within my domain of influence (things I can make happen if I choose to do so).

There is no think or do 'otherwise' within a deterministic system.

And I never have to think or do otherwise than I actually think and do, in order to choose from the restaurant menu whether to order the salad or the steak. After all, both are realizable possibilities (even though only one will be realized and the other will remain an unrealized possibility, that is, something that I could have done, but didn't).


The brain has the capacity to think and imagine, but not do otherwise.

The ability to do otherwise never requires that we actually do otherwise. There is a clear distinction between the things we "can" do and the things that we "will" do. You seem to be assuming that if we will not do something then we could not have done it. And that is an illogical assumption.

If you eliminate the notions of "can" and "possibilities", you break the machinery. And that's not a good idea, because the ability to choose what we will do, from a number of different options, has evolved to enable our species to adapt to a variety of challenges we find in our environment. It has enhanced our ability to survive.
 
What I don't understand about compatibilists is how can they know know reality when all they have is sense data with which to work. They don't have or use reality in any meaningful way. If they did thy would realized sense is a second order means for exploring what is in the world. What they see, taste, smell, feel, sense as upright and balance are all provided by sensory organs external to mind which they seem to think form the the basis for sensing such as choice, location and the rest. That is a gigantic leap going well beyond what is known.

We know location by experiment. We do not know by experiment whither choice or the rest. There is no experiment establishing mind or its relation to choice or even if there is such. Everybody understands what we think is the product of mind which is enabled by sense. Neither of these have been scientifically established as being determined directly by reality. We have only indirect impressions of the world that we use to get by in the world, not to know the world.

Ergo we don't know we just believe based on what we sense which is pretty close to a fiction. As a retired Sensory Neuro-Psycho-Physiologist I feel pretty comfortable making this assertion. There is no way we actually see, hear, taste smell, feel what is material. Rather we sense enough to provide us the ability to navigate and survive in the world in which we exist. If one examines the science one understands the differences between what we rationally believe and what actually is.

It is and will be my view that we are determined beings in a determined world who believe otherwise and will probably never get past that hurdle because we seem to need being at the center of things.
 
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FDI, you are stuck in the same place as DBT of demanding to know silly things in any attempt to make inference.

All YOU have is "sense data".

YOU don't, by such nonsense as you spout, have or use reality in any meaningful way.

As it is, we do know choice by experiment. It's how we defeated the enigma machine. We described choice function mathematically and from there made a machine that did it: that had some aspect conscious to some event, and which would act in that condition.

In fact that describes what a neuron does, in broad terms... It's interesting that sometimes we assume these things have to be so BIG for how important they seem to us, when really they are so small, and only the scale is so big for us that we only see it for the forest and not it's trees.

Getting by still means standing on assumptions and accepting that they are good enough. And that's what reasonable people mean when they utter 'knowledge'.

And lo, when we do treat what assumptions we have that seem good enough as such, we can do some really cool shit. Like making decision engines, operators of mechanical choice functions, and even whole worlds more directly observably deterministic than even our own in which we can watch objects operate choice functions of their own in their own deterministic system.

Of course, we do know our universe has regular and consistent rules. Our brains also have regular and consistent rules because they are built of stuff of our universe.

And it is downright foolish to assume that the initial configuration upon which we "figure" our existence is necessary as a part of those rules, that the rules only function as such upon that configuration.

Such is not a general requirement of systems which meet the mathematical definition of "deterministic"
 
What I don't understand about compatibilists is how can they know know reality when all they have is sense data with which to work. They don't have or use reality in any meaningful way. If they did thy would realized sense is a second order means for exploring what is in the world. What they see, taste, smell, feel, sense as upright and balance are all provided by sensory organs external to mind which they seem to think form the the basis for sensing such as choice, location and the rest. That is a gigantic leap going well beyond what is known.

We know location by experiment. We do not know by experiment whither choice or the rest. There is no experiment establishing mind or its relation to choice or even if there is such. Everybody understands what we think is the product of mind which is enabled by sense. Neither of these have been scientifically established as being determined directly by reality. We have only indirect impressions of the world that we use to get by in the world, not to know the world.

Ergo we don't know we just believe based on what we sense which is pretty close to a fiction. As a retired Sensory Neuro-Psycho-Physiologist I feel pretty comfortable making this assertion. There is no way we actually see, hear, taste smell, feel what is material. Rather we sense enough to provide us the ability to navigate and survive in the world in which we exist. If one examines the science one understands the differences between what we rationally believe and what actually is.

It is and will be my view that we are determined beings in a determined world who believe otherwise and will probably never get past that hurdle because we seem to need being at the center of things.
The problem is that all we can know of reality is all that we will know of reality. So, it is similar to the "brain in a vat" problem. The solution is that we must deal with the reality that we perceive, because we have no other reality to work with. And, like you say, "We have only indirect impressions of the world that we use to get by in the world, not to know the world." For all practical purposes, what we see is what we get, and we are not going to see anything else. So, we take it for granted that our knowledge of the world is valid, so long as it continues to work for us.

And, we cannot really validate the claim that what we sense "is pretty close to a fiction", because we cannot tell what is fact or fiction without any way to compare the reality we see with anything else. For all we know, reality may be exactly what we observe it to be.
 
Sorry guys. We have the scientific method which permits us to discover realities not perceived by our senses. Once discovered we can compare these new realities with our sense data and make use of that information. If the sense requirement was valid we wouldn't have relativity or quantum mechanics nor would it be possible for us to create or control the bomb which we obviously can.

Those of us who know this make use of the concept of  Ideal observer analysis in  Psychophysics to reconcile differences between sense data and material reality. It is unfortunate that ideal observer is used so recklessly as to be defined differently between rational and empirical situations. It's greatest value is in resolving such differences within a singular ratio model.
 
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Sorry guys. We have the scientific method which permits us to discover realities not perceived by our senses. Once discovered we can compare these new realities with our sense data and make use of that information. If the sense requirement was valid we wouldn't have relativity or quantum mechanics nor would it be possible for us to create or control the bomb which we obviously can.
Right. With the scientific method we have multiple observers checking up on each others observations and conducting controlled experiments. But having multiple senses also provides a means of checking our subjective data in different ways. For example, we walk up to what appears to be a bowl of fruit, and pick up an apple, but the apple is too light. We tap on it with our knuckle and it sounds hollow, and it doesn't have an apple's smell. Turns out to be a bowl of artificial fruit, put there for decoration, but not for eating.
 
Sorry guys. We have the scientific method which permits us to discover realities not perceived by our senses. Once discovered we can compare these new realities with our sense data and make use of that information. If the sense requirement was valid we wouldn't have relativity or quantum mechanics nor would it be possible for us to create or control the bomb which we obviously can.
Not if all we have is our senses, if all we have are the senses of other things, if our senses are the only thing that carry the sense data of those other sensory objects.

We can as easily compare our sense data to... Our own sense data for consistency.

This is the basic form of doing reality checks, and discovering whether you are dreaming!

It's almost as if... We can confirm, in fact what our senses are telling us through consistent output by them, and that again, things may be known and knowledge may be tested.

But your vision of the scientific method is not actually the scientific method. We've been through this, you consider "the academic process" to be "the scientific method" and no It is not.

One person can scientifically break down the whole principle of the operation of the universe all by themselves given enough time and so long as they follow what is actually the scientific method (observe, hypothesize a model, test hypothesis, repeat) requires none of the academic process. The academic process just helps speed things along and allow multiple doubts and tests.

That we use tools to improve them makes the result no less "of our senses", and the evidence our senses shows indicates that there is more to sense.

Those realities are still "perceived by our senses", improved and added upon as they are by additional hardware past the wetware.

It is no less me perceiving and knowing of the tree by my senses when I wear glasses as when I don't. Rather, my senses allow me to use the glasses to KNOW there are some parts of the tree that I'm not seeing very well, and that my knowledge is incomplete and needs to be thoroughly verified by repeating observations.

The fact is, the world doesn't go away when we shut our eyes, and things can be known, particularly the consistent rules of our universe. We know it through tested observation by our senses. We know it to the extent that our senses are reliable and we know their reliability in that respect because we test that too.

This instills a certain level of confidence in our knowledge of the consistent rules of the universe.

And the of course it makes perfect sense to take those well known consistent rules of the universe and ask ourselves "what is the arrangement of stuff which under those rules will transform into X result?"

Sometimes X result is "a cellphone".
Sorry guys. We have the scientific method which permits us to discover realities not perceived by our senses. Once discovered we can compare these new realities with our sense data and make use of that information. If the sense requirement was valid we wouldn't have relativity or quantum mechanics nor would it be possible for us to create or control the bomb which we obviously can.
Right. With the scientific method we have multiple observers checking up on each others observations and conducting controlled experiments. But having multiple senses also provides a means of checking our subjective data in different ways. For example, we walk up to what appears to be a bowl of fruit, and pick up an apple, but the apple is too light. We tap on it with our knuckle and it sound hollow, and it doesn't smell like an apple. Turns out to be a bowl of artificial fruit, put there for decoration, but not for eating.
The scientific method does not give us multiple observers. That is the academic process that gives such.

The scientific method operates suitably fine with a single observer. All that is required is that they test their hypothesis against observation, and the scientific method is satisfied.

Even the output of a single sense may be validated by a single person through careful observation, recording, and tests.

How else do you think I normally figure out when I am dreaming?
 
Now if you two are through with your preaching maybe you will read and respond to my entire post.
We did. now if you are done with your know-nothing preaching, go tell people you know nothing somewhere else maybe.
 
which is not subject to will, wish, regulation or choice in the form of alternate actions.
And then you beg the question again. You and FDI really have your heads lodged QUITE firmly, don't you?

It's you.

You persistently contradict your own definition of free will.

Once again: your own definition of determinism does not permit alternate actions. No alternate actions equate to no alternate decisions or actions. No alternate decisions and actions equates to all events proceed as determined by prior states of the system, which includes your experience of will, wish, want, need and related actions, all fixed by antecedents.

Therefore, like it or not, huff and puff if it makes you feel better, but how events evolve is not - according to the terms of your own definition - to will, wish, regulation or choice in the form of alternate actions, just as I pointed out.

'Begging the question' is your rationale, even as you deny the terms of your own definition.
 
your own definition of determinism does not permit alternate actions
Again with your failure to understand "alternative".

This is your fundamental issue. Perhaps try answering this post:
How did you arrive at your belief that "a real (non-illusory) choice" requires conditions that, in your view, have never existed and never can?

Isn't it clear that I was pointing out that within a determined system, there can be no choice,

Of course.

In order to declare that choice is not possible in a deterministic universe, you must have in your mind a working definition of choice. It will be a definition which stipulates the conditions under which a choice can be made (conditions which in your view don't, and can never, exist).

The problem here is that your definition doesn't reflect how the majority of competent English speakers use the word. So I'm asking you where you got your definition and, what is your justification for insisting that the majority of English speakers are mistaken?
 
Not if all we have is our senses, if all we have are the senses of other things, if our senses are the only thing that carry the sense data of those other sensory objects.

How else do you think I normally figure out when I am dreaming?
Same way I do, through use of experiment. Oh, wait ..... you don...
 


1. No one has power over the facts of the past and the laws of nature.
2. No one has power over the fact that the facts of the past and the laws of nature entail every fact of the future (i.e., determinism is true).
3. Therefore, no one has power over the facts of the future.



The laws of nature entail every fact of the future?

This is why talking with DBT is a waste of time. He repeats this stuff like a mantra, but as I have pointed out a million times, the so-called “laws” of nature describe what happens in the world. They do not prescribe what happens in the world. If he thinks that they do, I challenge him to PROVE IT. He has ignored this challenge every time I have brought it up. It’s as if he never reads what anyone writes and all his answers are pre-formed on a save-get key.

If you actually understood determinism and its implications, you would understand that that laws of nature refers to the properties of matter/energy and the nature of its interactions and events as they evolve, etc, that if determinism is true, every fact of the future is entailed at time t and the way things go ever after.

Otherwise it's not determinism.

You, Pood, want it both ways: ''determinism'' and ''not determinism'' - in contradiction to the definition of determinism given by compatibilists.

What do you think ''All of these events, including my choices, were causally necessary from any prior point in time. And they all proceeded without deviation from the Big Bang to this moment'' means, if not that all facts of the future are entailed?
 
Not if all we have is our senses, if all we have are the senses of other things, if our senses are the only thing that carry the sense data of those other sensory objects.

How else do you think I normally figure out when I am dreaming?
Same way I do, through use of experiment. Oh, wait ..... you don...
And of course all you have is nonsense.

It's almost as if, in reality, when we shut our eyes the world does not go away, and when we open them, it is the same world we are observing again, especially when all the same numbers come back again.

Go on. Go pretend you know nothing.
 
'Begging the question' is your rationale, even as you deny the terms of your own definition.

I don't know who named these logical fallacies, but "begging the question" is a stupid name for "including the conclusion in the premise". Not only that, but a premise is an assumption. If someone wants to challenge the assumption they can do so directly without confusing everyone by calling it "begging the question" (where is the question? where is the begging? wtf?).

Ah! And in Wikipedia we have the answer: "The phrase begging the question originated in the 16th century as a mistranslation of the Latin petitio principii, which in turn was a mistranslation of the Greek for "assuming the conclusion".

The stupid name came from a translation error!

Seems to me we could fix this by renaming the fallacy "assuming the conclusion in the premise".
 
Sorry guys. We have the scientific method which permits us to discover realities not perceived by our senses. Once discovered we can compare these new realities with our sense data and make use of that information. If the sense requirement was valid we wouldn't have relativity or quantum mechanics nor would it be possible for us to create or control the bomb which we obviously can.
Not if all we have is our senses, if all we have are the senses of other things, if our senses are the only thing that carry the sense data of those other sensory objects.

WTF??? I specified we have the scientific method in addition to our senses. Nobody gives a shit about responding to conditional that is already specified. Go argue with yourself.
 
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