Consciousness

[fromderinside]

-nm

Reflex, reactive, is all we have. It has to do with constancy of light speed as determinant of how things work here.

I like Bohmian Mechanics. It is a deterministic pilot wave theory consistent with QM. Light speed? Einstein? It only works for the large. Gravity between cells is insignificant.

Reflex -- built in by genes that have survived by having that reflex while those which did not did not survive. The genes that cause the vine to reach for the sun are the result of the death of those who did not. Reactive -- systems which affect survival by accommodating the local environment in real time.
Using the fact of determinism we can predict the future. We do that by remembering. In the future the future will be like the past because in the past the future has always been like the past. It is the axiom of experience. Just as evolution trims out the undesirable, so too inevitable the failures to predicting the future can leads to death.

Fixed it!

 

[untermensche]

Reflex, reactive, is all we have...

Never mind is right.

A computer does not work by reaction. It works by programming.

If a neuron could only do one thing then we would have nothing but reaction.

One set of neurons to think about the letter A and another to think about the letter B.

And no way for any new thoughts to arise.

 

[fromderinside]

I don't know what computers you've encountered or programmed. In my 60 years of building, maintaining, programming, and using, computers I've yet to see one that does other than execute what is programmed, even if that programming is Bayesian. Even copmputers that write programs apply programs to that task provided them for that activity.

There are lot's of programs in humans. They are all reflexive, reactive, programs. If this then, ever read that? Do while , do until, all automatism. After all they are computer language programs. Neurons will do depending on what are inputs and available outputs. Any predicting or then do activity humans seem to perform are actually rehearsing, planning or explaining activities. Doing thought is already actions done or in process.

Since humans are exposed to unique situations thousands of times a day it is unlikely all thoughts have been programmed. If all thoughts have been programmed then evolution would wind down if it were an optimizing process as most believe. No need to expend energy on for what is already prepared. See no sign of it winding down even in species that appear to have remained very constant for millions of years.

So , nope. There's a new, encountered set of conditions every instant apparently providing grist for the evolutionary process to arbitrate a better solution.

 

[untermensche]

You don't understand the difference between a program and a reflex.

You don't understand the difference between a brain that can actually do something and one that behaves reflexively.

People have been trying to model a reflexive brain for decades. They have nothing to show for it.

You can't produce structure, like the visual experience, from reflex.

That takes "programming" of some kind.

You've never seen a computer that did anything by reflex.

 

[George S]

You've never seen a computer that did anything by reflex.

The equivalent to reflex is reacting to a mouse click. The program has no choice, just like a reflex.

 

[Juma]

You don't understand the difference between a program and a reflex.

You don't understand the difference between a brain that can actually do something and one that behaves reflexively.

People have been trying to model a reflexive brain for decades. They have nothing to show for it.

You can't produce structure, like the visual experience, from reflex.

That takes "programming" of some kind.

You've never seen a computer that did anything by reflex.

Reflexive brain? Reflexes doesnt reach the brain. Reflexes are much lower ordered actions.

 

[fromderinside]

You've never seen a computer that did anything by reflex.

Reflexive brain? Reflexes doesnt reach the brain. Reflexes are much lower ordered actions.

I can't believe my reflex is to tell Juma everything done in the brain is based on reaction which, as it happens, is the case.

 reflex

 Chain of events

 Action potential

Terhnically a reflex has come to be known for 'non-thinking reactions' to input where output is predetermined.

Unfortunately for us an action an potential can be described the same way.

The difference between what I call reflex in the cortex and brain above the spine is different from a traditional reflex only in where it takes place. Not a discriminating factor IMHO. Nor, for that matter is a reflex useful in discussion of consciousness. Both the wiki reflex and wiki action potential are wiki reactive chains of events fixed by biophysical laws of nature. Both are genetically determined, both are physically, induced and both are biochemically mediated.

The primary difference is in the periphery we can isolate neural tissue and generate the reflex independently of other mediation. When we isolate a neuron we can use the same terms to describe the reaction as we do with reflex and we can typify a limited neuronal chain of events as both reflex and action potential.

If reflex were of any value it would physically stand on it's own, but, that is obviously not the case.

I suggest we put reflex aside. It is a tainted concept as far as neural processes are concerned loaded down by ancient biases and stances in the field interfering with clear consideration of actual physical relationships.

 

[untermensche]

You've never seen a computer that did anything by reflex.

The equivalent to reflex is reacting to a mouse click. The program has no choice, just like a reflex.

It's actually part of an "if then" program with several options depending on circumstances.

For instance on some internet photos you can right click and save them. On others you cannot.

The same mouse click two different outcomes.

A reflex is: THIS happens then THAT happens. Every time.

I hit the patellar tendon when stretched and it causes the quads to contract. If the hammer blow is the same and the leg is in the same position and the person is equally relaxed you get the same reaction. Every time.

Very unlike a mouse click.

Or the ability to choose to move the arm at will and then do it. Or not do it.

 

[fromderinside]

The equivalent to reflex is reacting to a mouse click. The program has no choice, just like a reflex.

It's actually part of an "if then" program with several options depending on circumstances.

Interesting. You add an "and or" to an if then to respond to George S.

"If then" is reflex. :It then"plus "and or" is chain of events. All can be reflected as neuron activity. Ooh, I used a form of reflex.

So..... your point is my point, or, you're pulling a "Thinking Man's" Trump of lying by concluding fiction with some fact.

Need a higher level of play here laddie.

 

[untermensche]

It's actually part of an "if then" program with several options depending on circumstances.

Interesting. You add an "and or" to an if then to respond to George S.

"If then" is reflex. :It then"plus "and or" is chain of events. All can be reflected as neuron activity. Ooh, I used a form of reflex.

So..... your point is my point, or, you're pulling a "Thinking Man's" Trump of lying by concluding fiction with some fact.

Need a higher level of play here laddie.

Variation of response is not reflex.

You can't get anything with simply reflex.

Like trying to have a computer with just a reflexive chip.

 

[untermensche]

It's actually part of an "if then" program with several options depending on circumstances.

Interesting. You add an "and or" to an if then to respond to George S.

"If then" is reflex. :It then"plus "and or" is chain of events. All can be reflected as neuron activity. Ooh, I used a form of reflex.

So..... your point is my point, or, you're pulling a "Thinking Man's" Trump of lying by concluding fiction with some fact.

Need a higher level of play here laddie.

Variation of response is not reflex.

You can't get anything with simply reflex.

Like trying to have a computer with just a reflexive chip.

 

[fromderinside]

Variation of response is not reflex.

You can't get anything with simply reflex.

Like trying to have a computer with just a reflexive chip.

"If then" is a reflex. The name describes the activity.

Everything material at the micro level is reflex. Compounding reflexes do not make the activity other than reflexive.

All computer programs, chips, are just a bundle of reflexes leading to a particular result. try getting a bunch of transistor (chip, programs are bunches of transisters) or, more boole, switches to do anything other than respond as designed.

 

[untermensche]

"If then" can mean: If this and this and this and not this. Or if a little of this then that but if too much of this then something else.

This is not reflexive activity.

It is programmed activity. And it can become incredibly complex as we see with computers.

You cannot get function from reflex.

Vision is partially reflex. It is partially a reaction .

But it is mostly a creation. And that takes "programs" of some kind. You can't create the visual experience without very specific "instructions".

Nothing in the world is blue.

The creation of blue cannot be a reflex.

I know you looked and looked for a few years and found no programming.

You were not able to climb the mountain by taking one step. And now you are upset because you are told you still have an entire mountain to climb.

 

[fromderinside]

Uh,

The part after the "if": you get good grades - is called a hypotheses and the part after the "then" - you will get into a good college - is called a conclusion.Hypotheses followed by a conclusion is called an If-then statement or a conditional statement.
This is noted as

[FONT=MathJax_Math-italic]p[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Main]→[/FONT][FONT=MathJax_Math-italic]q[/FONT]p→q​

This is read - if p then q.
A conditional statement is false if hypothesis is true and the conclusion is false. The example above would be false if it said "if you get good grades then you will not get into a good college".
If we re-arrange a conditional statement or change parts of it then we have what is called a related conditional.

To what you refer is something else.

Programming refers to automated methods for solving known problems with current data or in some cases anticipated data. Anticipated data is known, therefore programmable, making all programming a reflexive (switch or this that) task, a task where knowns always lead to other knowns.

I provide some forms of programming so you can satisfy yourself that all programming is basically a combining of a set of known inputs to select known outputs

 Reactive programming

 Ambient Intelligence

 Computer programming

It doesn't matter how many this or that switches one uses to make a program it is always the product of this-that switches. In ambient modes one may input known behaviors from which one programs ways for machine to both learn and communicate intelligence, all of which is just applying switches to information in structures.

There is nothing new under the sun son. Your creative is my conversion from form A to form B by process of association.

 

[untermensche]

Humans have their programming and the brain has it's.

And it is unlikely the "programs" of the brain resemble human constructions.

Vision is not a reflex.



Which cube is the reflex?

How is it I can switch from looking at one cube and then another at will?

Why do the "reflexes" of the brain switch from one cube to another? What is motivating them to do something like that?

How do reflexes create something new?

 

[fromderinside]

Not hard at all. Edges define lines, converging edges define vertices, shading and scale define depth. So what we have is lateral inhibition mediated edge processes working to provide general outlines with contrast (shade) processing and comparison processing (memory) determining dimensional aspect. Not new at all. Can be compared with previous processing.

RE: From one to the other. Turns out NS is predisposed to find similarity, grouping, difference. They are important to surviving.

You think way too much of yourself when most of what you rant about has been in us beasties since about the time of mantas (350 mya).

clink, rattle, creak, clang goes the machine.

 

[untermensche]

Dodge.

Which cube is the reflex?

 

[fromderinside]

Properly considered in context they are all made reflexively by a fairly well wired NS they are all reflexes. They will happen regardless of what you think you think about it. Move your arm. OK. Arm already moved, but sure, you'll follow that 'command'.

BTW, just in case you missed what I wrote, vision is reflexive.

 

[untermensche]

Properly considered in context they are all made reflexively by a fairly well wired NS they are all reflexes. They will happen regardless of what you think you think about it. Move your arm. OK. Arm already moved, but sure, you'll follow that 'command'.

BTW, just in case you missed what I wrote, vision is reflexive.

So which cube is the reflex?

I can see either at will.

 

[fromderinside]

Like I wrote, you can believe with confidence you can command anything after it's been done. When you will your arm up you have to restrain it from already being up to actually have your act follow your 'command'.