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Consciousness

I'm trying to learn bout panpsychism, ryan. Bingo figuring out that people are satirical on message boards. You're funny when you feel insulted.

Now. Tell me what panpsychism means in your life. Excellent opportunity to belittle someone here. Don't miss out.

Don't insult someone twice (yes I read your other post too) and then turn into a victimized sad sac.

Articulate your own frustration and confusion with something you couldn't possibly understand, by insulting someone who is satirizing in a way that may be over your head or just poorly executed 90% of the time.

Just define panpsychism and then define pantheism. Then tell me how your life is any different, having learned the difference - if there even is one. "I don't know about it or understand it; therefor, it's stupid and wrong"? What you mean is that you don't understand what you're explaining, and it makes you feel stupid and wrong. You're human and that is Okay. I'm interested to know how you define this stuff, thank you. Go on?

I know you are interested in learning this stuff; I can tell by your scream for attention to mouth feed you.

When I knew absolutely nothing about this topic like you do, 4 years ago, I just outright asked the person who clearly knew more than me. His name was d-con, not around anymore. He had a philosophy degree in a top university and destroyed the materialists which made me realize how much more vast and complicated philosophy is beyond materialsm.

How about admitting you know absolutely nothing about this, and just asking without trying to get someone's attention like a child?

And why would I help you anyways? It would only encourage this embarrassingly childish behavior, thus teaching you something wrong in addition to the philosophy you hope to understand.
 
Sometimes when we talk to other people, we're actually speaking to ourselves. Some of the phrases you used there, they smell fishy to me, as a psychology brainwashed man. This is all getting very frustrating and I'm sorry I triggered you.

See ryan, if you don't know shit about something, you tell your friends that you don't. You shouldn't propose things as if you know, and then when cornered, take it all personally. I don't plan on ever knowing you past this little box we talk in, ryan. That is why I'm not insulted, and I honestly don't intend to insult you. I remember people from frdb having this exact conversation. Nothing has changed but your jargon. Reading new books I see. Still no closer, but keep trying. How about admitting you know absolutely nothing about this. That may be the number missing in your equation. It all may make perfect sense, when you add that one little digit. Still not an insult btw.

Now. Define panpsychism for me please. That was what I asked you to do. And pantheism. Yeah define that, too. The defensiveness is kinda 2010 and you should be past it by now. Are you really so passionate about your panpsychism (or whatever better thinkers have convinced you of) that you'll allow yourself to be insulted by a virtual stranger over it? Think like a child if you have to. This isn't as serious as you're taking it. Define please.
 
Sometimes when we talk to other people, we're actually speaking to ourselves. Some of the phrases you used there, they smell fishy to me, as a psychology brainwashed man. This is all getting very frustrating and I'm sorry I triggered you.

See ryan, if you don't know shit about something, you tell your friends that you don't. You shouldn't propose things as if you know, and then when cornered, take it all personally. I don't plan on ever knowing you past this little box we talk in, ryan. That is why I'm not insulted, and I honestly don't intend to insult you. I remember people from frdb having this exact conversation. Nothing has changed but your jargon. Reading new books I see. Still no closer, but keep trying. How about admitting you know absolutely nothing about this. That may be the number missing in your equation. It all may make perfect sense, when you add that one little digit. Still not an insult btw.

Do you know a lot about this subject? The people who know more than I either ignore me or try to correct me; I learnt much on here that way. If you don't know more than I do about this topic, then how do you know I don't know it? If you do know more than I, why won't you point to any of the thousands of posts I made about this topic; that's usually how it works.

It just stinks of a childish cry for help. If not, then I suggest to you to put in the hard work yourself; I am not going to spoon feed.

Now. Define panpsychism for me please. That was what I asked you to do. And pantheism. Yeah define that, too. The defensiveness is kinda 2010 and you should be past it by now. Are you really so passionate about your panpsychism (or whatever better thinkers have convinced you of) that you'll allow yourself to be insulted by a virtual stranger over it? Think like a child if you have to. This isn't as serious as you're taking it. Define please.

Just find a definition from a reputable source; that's how I define it. I could not and would not define it any other way.
 
IDK anything about panpsychism. Everything about pantheism. There is a big washing machine of stupid ideas running on the word pantheism. I was claiming to be pantheist when facebook launched. That was an actual choice in the Religion section for "about me". Mistake, because then I had to explain to everyone that pantheism has nothing to do with satan. Tired of explaining things to dumb people. I don't explain things anymore. You do feel the angst that comes when you have failed to illustrate what you know to be true? It is coarse, like a sore throat. Itches. A feeling everyone knows well, but handles differently. My advice would be stop reading books. But anyway, please give me an honest, personal explanation of exactly what panpsychism is to you. I don't care about "reputable sources". I'll understand better if you do the thinking for me. Please define, I ask for the third time.
 
IDK anything about panpsychism.

So you admit you know nothing about panpsychism, yet you claim that I don't understand what I am explaining. Do you see now what I was saying? That is such ignorance like I have never seen before. It's just on a whole other level.

Everything about pantheism. There is a big washing machine of stupid ideas running on the word pantheism. I was claiming to be pantheist when facebook launched. That was an actual choice in the Religion section for "about me". Mistake, because then I had to explain to everyone that pantheism has nothing to do with satan. Tired of explaining things to dumb people. I don't explain things anymore. You do feel the angst that comes when you have failed to illustrate what you know to be true?

I have no expectations that philosophies like panpsychism are true. People do not necessarily expect philosophies to be true.

It is coarse, like a sore throat. Itches. A feeling everyone knows well, but handles differently. My advice would be stop reading books. But anyway, please give me an honest, personal explanation of exactly what panpsychism is to you. I don't care about "reputable sources". I'll understand better if you do the thinking for me. Please define, I ask for the third time.

It's a long answer. If you don't know much about the topic of consciousness in general, it won't make sense; trust me.

If you are absolutely serious about learning this concept, please just give me an idea of what kind of philosophies you believe in. For example are you a materialist, theist, pluralist, etc?
 
Telepathically?

Are you being serious? Do you seriously think I have knowledge that can help you? What do you want to know?

You are dealing with many arguments and not giving this much justice.

The issue was not whether philosophy is totally useless. I don't believe that.

The issue was what we use to describe and define the existing world.

We use science.

We cannot get knowledge about the existing world any better way.

If you disagree give me some knowledge of the existing world that was arrived at a different way.
 
So you admit you know nothing about panpsychism, yet you claim that I don't understand what I am explaining

No, I just don't understand why you refuse to explain. I asked three times.


Saying that is really telling. Just sayin man, you may want to remove that phrase from now on. Very fishy when someone says "trust me" after dodging an intricate explanation. Not an insult btw. Please loosen up. Consciousness is what I do, so fire away.

If you are absolutely serious about learning this concept, please just give me an idea of what kind of philosophies you believe in. For example are you a materialist, theist, pluralist, etc?

Christian, but panprotosychism interests me. I listened to David J. Chalmers with narrator sped up double time - laced with ambient electronica. Good way to read. From the nonsense I have heard so far, I'd say that panprotosychism is the most interesting word I've heard today. Definitely gonna to make me look cool when speaking to people I despise on the internet. Closest to what I actually think, too.

I have long answers that you probably don't want to hear (trust me), but I'm dying to explain reality to you. Do you want me to? To tell you what I really think about reality? The word panprotosychism may be thrown around a lot, but I still don't fully understand what it means. Derails for days but ask away, AFTER you have answered my simple question. This is the fourth time I'm asking. I'm asking because I'd like to know what you think. You should take the compliment and make some definitions for me now thanks
 
Are you being serious? Do you seriously think I have knowledge that can help you? What do you want to know?

You are dealing with many arguments and not giving this much justice.

The issue was not whether philosophy is totally useless. I don't believe that.

The issue was what we use to describe and define the existing world.

We use science.

We cannot get knowledge about the existing world any better way.

Well there is historical information, but I agree for the most part.

If you disagree give me some knowledge of the existing world that was arrived at a different way.

The consciousness, if it exists, has been known to exist before science was invented.

Science is also at a point of atomism which is a very old philosophy. If elementary particles really are elementary, then atomism was correct.

But also think about philosophy as a way to discover what isn't science. A falsified hypothesis is not science (not knowledge for scientific realism) "anymore" but somehow was, but now is thrown into the heap of philosophies that aren't science.
 
The consciousness, if it exists, has been known to exist before science was invented.

Introspection transforms data into theory or model. But you need the data and the methods. You can't just have introspection even though introspection is essential.

Science is also at a point of atomism which is a very old philosophy. If elementary particles really are elementary, then atomism was correct.

If philosophical theories happen to coincide with the findings of science that is just coincidence.

It is not as if science is working under the strict adherence to some philosophical theory.

Science has found these particles.

It didn't invent them.

But also think about philosophy as a way to discover what isn't science. A falsified hypothesis is not science (not knowledge for scientific realism) "anymore" but somehow was, but now is thrown into the heap of philosophies that aren't science.

Philosophy can keep science in line. Can check it's claims.
 
No, I just don't understand why you refuse to explain. I asked three times.


Saying that is really telling. Just sayin man, you may want to remove that phrase from now on. Very fishy when someone says "trust me" after dodging an intricate explanation. Not an insult btw. Please loosen up. Consciousness is what I do, so fire away.

If you are absolutely serious about learning this concept, please just give me an idea of what kind of philosophies you believe in. For example are you a materialist, theist, pluralist, etc?

Christian, but panprotosychism interests me. I listened to David J. Chalmers with narrator sped up double time - laced with ambient electronica. Good way to read. From the nonsense I have heard so far, I'd say that panprotosychism is the most interesting word I've heard today. Definitely gonna to make me look cool when speaking to people I despise on the internet. Closest to what I actually think, too.

What is nonsense? If you find Chalmers to be nonsense, then I don't think I could possibly make sense to you.

I have long answers that you probably don't want to hear (trust me), but I'm dying to explain reality to you. Do you want me to? To tell you what I really think about reality? The word panprotosychism may be thrown around a lot, but I still don't fully understand what it means. Derails for days but ask away, AFTER you have answered my simple question. This is the fourth time I'm asking. I'm asking because I'd like to know what you think. You should take the compliment and make some definitions for me now thanks

It's not a simple answer since you want my personal opinion.

My personal opinion starts, like Descartes, that I start with the one thing I am most sure of my consciousness. The next most certain thing I know is that my body and consciousness are very closely correlated. Other bodies that exist are like mine and claim the same thing about a consciousness, so I assume this to be true. I can now build off of these axioms.

Are you with me so far?
 
Introspection transforms data into theory or model. But you need the data and the methods. You can't just have introspection even though introspection is essential.

Science is also at a point of atomism which is a very old philosophy. If elementary particles really are elementary, then atomism was correct.

If philosophical theories happen to coincide with the findings of science that is just coincidence.

It is not as if science is working under the strict adherence to some philosophical theory.

Science has found these particles.

It didn't invent them.

From Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atomism-ancient/ , ask yourself if what Diodorus Cronus (4th century BCE) says is a justified true belief (assuming science has hit the bottom with elementary particles):

"His argument begins from the idea that there is a difference in size between the smallest size at which a given object is visible—presumably from a given distance—and the largest size at which it is invisible. Unless we concede that, at some magnitude, a body is both invisible and visible (or neither), there cannot be any other magnitude intermediate between these two magnitudes. Magnitudes must increase by discrete units."

This is a good example of philosophy because he uses logic while choosing a more justified assumption between the two options. This may have inched us closer to formulating a scientific hypothesis.

But also think about philosophy as a way to discover what isn't science. A falsified hypothesis is not science (not knowledge for scientific realism) "anymore" but somehow was, but now is thrown into the heap of philosophies that aren't science.

Philosophy can keep science in line. Can check it's claims.

Also, how many times do you see scientists/people mention Occam's razor about what science has yet to explain, such as witches being the reason for quantum mechanics, or a really large person being the cause of dark energy and stretching the universe like an accordion.
 
No, I just don't understand why you refuse to explain. I asked three times.



Saying that is really telling. Just sayin man, you may want to remove that phrase from now on. Very fishy when someone says "trust me" after dodging an intricate explanation. Not an insult btw. Please loosen up. Consciousness is what I do, so fire away.

If you are absolutely serious about learning this concept, please just give me an idea of what kind of philosophies you believe in. For example are you a materialist, theist, pluralist, etc?

Christian, but panprotosychism interests me. I listened to David J. Chalmers with narrator sped up double time - laced with ambient electronica. Good way to read. From the nonsense I have heard so far, I'd say that panprotosychism is the most interesting word I've heard today. Definitely gonna to make me look cool when speaking to people I despise on the internet. Closest to what I actually think, too.

What is nonsense? If you find Chalmers to be nonsense, then I don't think I could possibly make sense to you.

I have long answers that you probably don't want to hear (trust me), but I'm dying to explain reality to you. Do you want me to? To tell you what I really think about reality? The word panprotosychism may be thrown around a lot, but I still don't fully understand what it means. Derails for days but ask away, AFTER you have answered my simple question. This is the fourth time I'm asking. I'm asking because I'd like to know what you think. You should take the compliment and make some definitions for me now thanks

It's not a simple answer since you want my personal opinion.

My personal opinion starts, like Descartes, that I start with the one thing I am most sure of my consciousness. The next most certain thing I know is that my body and consciousness are very closely correlated. Other bodies that exist are like mine and claim the same thing about a consciousness, so I assume this to be true. I can now build off of these axioms.

Are you with me so far?

Totally but I don't like the word axioms. No need to assume those are even necessary. Yes I already assumed all of those things you mentioned because this is 2017 and we're not wearing powdery wigs. Don't really need a system to state the obvious but go on? Three things noted. And btw you seriously take that author seriously? I can't even remember his name. The book stopped playing and I took it all in. Not too good. It seems like the kind of thing you need to know other things to get the secret joke he is telling. These references to powdery words that don't really apply much anymore. Shouldn't anyway. Feels like a bad and limited language they're using. I wouldn't recommend it to a friend.
 
No, I just don't understand why you refuse to explain. I asked three times.



Saying that is really telling. Just sayin man, you may want to remove that phrase from now on. Very fishy when someone says "trust me" after dodging an intricate explanation. Not an insult btw. Please loosen up. Consciousness is what I do, so fire away.

If you are absolutely serious about learning this concept, please just give me an idea of what kind of philosophies you believe in. For example are you a materialist, theist, pluralist, etc?

Christian, but panprotosychism interests me. I listened to David J. Chalmers with narrator sped up double time - laced with ambient electronica. Good way to read. From the nonsense I have heard so far, I'd say that panprotosychism is the most interesting word I've heard today. Definitely gonna to make me look cool when speaking to people I despise on the internet. Closest to what I actually think, too.

What is nonsense? If you find Chalmers to be nonsense, then I don't think I could possibly make sense to you.

I have long answers that you probably don't want to hear (trust me), but I'm dying to explain reality to you. Do you want me to? To tell you what I really think about reality? The word panprotosychism may be thrown around a lot, but I still don't fully understand what it means. Derails for days but ask away, AFTER you have answered my simple question. This is the fourth time I'm asking. I'm asking because I'd like to know what you think. You should take the compliment and make some definitions for me now thanks

It's not a simple answer since you want my personal opinion.

My personal opinion starts, like Descartes, that I start with the one thing I am most sure of my consciousness. The next most certain thing I know is that my body and consciousness are very closely correlated. Other bodies that exist are like mine and claim the same thing about a consciousness, so I assume this to be true. I can now build off of these axioms.

Are you with me so far?

Totally but I don't like the word axioms. No need to assume those are even necessary. Yes I already assumed all of those things you mentioned because this is 2017 and we're not wearing powdery wigs. Don't really need a system to state the obvious but go on? Three things noted. And btw you seriously take that author seriously? I can't even remember his name. The book stopped playing and I took it all in. Not too good. It seems like the kind of thing you need to know other things to get the secret joke he is telling. These references to powdery words that don't really apply much anymore. Shouldn't anyway. Feels like a bad and limited language they're using. I wouldn't recommend it to a friend.

Now an even more fundamental implication arises, and that is that whole statements exist at least mentally; they would have to in order for my axioms to have a meaning as a whole above and beyond the collection of words, letters, pixels, atoms etc. Now we have discrete whole mental objects that compose, at least in part, my consciousness.

Still with me? Any arguments about what I said?
 
Nah no arguments so far. That paragraph there, it had some questionable moments but everything checks out. You're saying that we're both aware of what you're saying. Still part of my brain on this end, so no objections yet. 10-4.

Can you make up some words please? It may help to have an arsenal of new, unused words. You know, for when things get confusing.
 
Nah no arguments so far. That paragraph there, it had some questionable moments but everything checks out. You're saying that we're both aware of what you're saying. Still part of my brain on this end, so no objections yet. 10-4.

Can you make up some words please? It may help to have an arsenal of new, unused words. You know, for when things get confusing.

What do you mean make up words?
 
If you feel it is necessary I will accept any new words. The old ones aren't quite cutting it. Please include a vague definition when adding new words. I mean... did they just stop producing words one day, as if there were enough? Apparently there aren't. That was what I meant. terms, phrases, slang or whatever. Words unused. I learn new words everyday but they aren't actually new. It isn't so foreign to make up a word here and there. Ever try slipping them in on people to see if they notice? Classic.
 
Introspection transforms data into theory or model. But you need the data and the methods. You can't just have introspection even though introspection is essential.



If philosophical theories happen to coincide with the findings of science that is just coincidence.

It is not as if science is working under the strict adherence to some philosophical theory.

Science has found these particles.

It didn't invent them.

From Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atomism-ancient/ , ask yourself if what Diodorus Cronus (4th century BCE) says is a justified true belief (assuming science has hit the bottom with elementary particles):

"His argument begins from the idea that there is a difference in size between the smallest size at which a given object is visible—presumably from a given distance—and the largest size at which it is invisible. Unless we concede that, at some magnitude, a body is both invisible and visible (or neither), there cannot be any other magnitude intermediate between these two magnitudes. Magnitudes must increase by discrete units."

This is a good example of philosophy because he uses logic while choosing a more justified assumption between the two options. This may have inched us closer to formulating a scientific hypothesis.

But also think about philosophy as a way to discover what isn't science. A falsified hypothesis is not science (not knowledge for scientific realism) "anymore" but somehow was, but now is thrown into the heap of philosophies that aren't science.

Philosophy can keep science in line. Can check it's claims.

Also, how many times do you see scientists/people mention Occam's razor about what science has yet to explain, such as witches being the reason for quantum mechanics, or a really large person being the cause of dark energy and stretching the universe like an accordion.
Diodorus Cronus was wrong. How cannot you see that? There is no reason to believe that magnitudes changes in steps, until you have empirical facts for it.
The logical error is that he didnt realize that something can be barely visible. That visibility isnt a two state parameter.
 
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If you feel it is necessary I will accept any new words. The old ones aren't quite cutting it. Please include a vague definition when adding new words. I mean... did they just stop producing words one day, as if there were enough? Apparently there aren't. That was what I meant. terms, phrases, slang or whatever. Words unused. I learn new words everyday but they aren't actually new. It isn't so foreign to make up a word here and there. Ever try slipping them in on people to see if they notice? Classic.

How about aabbccddee? New enough?

So now we assume that there is a body and a mind. The three popular questions are: why is the mind there, how is the mind there and what is the mind. (from Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

To address how and why, there are theories that boil down to the emergence of the mind from the body, and there are theories that try to understand the mind from the knowledge of the components of the body. I like the latter because that is just the way its correlate works, matter + energy, (or mass and energy individually). And it wouldn't seem natural that extra phenomena like a mind just pops out of nowhere when its conserved physical bodies change configuration. That's my reductionist argument.

For the purposes of this explanation of why I like panpsychism, the what question is simply that it is unified, questioning other properties does not seem as relevant.

So, if you will, let's take those assumptions; are you with me?

Now if the mind is truly fundamental to at least a whole thought at a time that I posited as irreducible, then we have to a say mental state M correlated to some brain process/state B. Imagine whatever B is is the minimum necessary for M (M can be pain, a memory, etc.). During the time that M and B occur (simultaneously), we know from particle physics that B, like M, would be discontinuous (memory or pain starts and ends). But unfortunately, that would also appear to mean that B is not a whole; it would be internally discontinuous. Yet we did posit that M is a whole - problem!

This is something called the binding problem which means that panpsychism has a problem here. There is a possible solution around this though, which has actual scientific evidence and theory to back it up. Quantum entanglement has now been shown to exist in warm environments of organisms, something that was thought impossible for decades.

So now we have a possible new option. We can explain the whole/binding of the consciousness by way of an entangled/whole correlate. In entanglement, a single physical object exists in addition to its parts while conserving matter + energy.

It may not be probable, but it is possible and one of my favorite explanations of consciousness. Of course without the confirmation of entangled systems in the brain, I would be less hopeful for panpsychism.
 
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