"Coronavirus and the US" or "We are all going to die!!!!"

[blastula]

All those distinctions are in the study.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There should be no question of the safety of hydroxychloroquine used as a prophylaxis. It has been given to many millions as a prophylaxis for malaria over the last several decades. Whether it is useful to ameliorate the symptoms of the coronavirus seems to be debatable, some doctors swear by it and others say it is useless.

It's been used but even at the prophylaxis dose it's known for nasty side effects.

Yes a small percentage of the population have negative reaction to hydroxychloroquine. But then a small percentage of the population have a severe negative reaction to aspirin, a small percentage of the population have a severe negative reaction to penicillin, there is even a small percentage of the population that have a really severe negative reaction to peanuts.

Chloroquine in any form has a lot higher side effect rate than most drugs.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/22/health/us-coronavirus-friday/index.html

Seriously ill Covid-19 patients treated with hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine were more likely to die or develop dangerous heart arrhythmias, according to a large observational study published Friday in the medical journal The Lancet.

Researchers looked at data from more than 96,000 Covid-19 patients from 671 hospitals. All were hospitalized from late December to mid-April and had died or been discharged by April 21. Just below 15,000 were treated with the antimalarial drugs hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine, or one of those drugs combined with an antibiotic.

Those treatments were linked with a higher risk of dying in the hospital, the study found. About 1 in 6 patients treated with chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine alone died in the hospital, compared to 1 in 11 patients in the control group.

If you have taken HCQ for only 30 days or less and not ill and had a new heart arrhythmia let CNN know. It would be worth $1,000,000 to you.
It may be true that HCQ exacerbates existing heart arrhythmias. A contraindication for a given patient who has arrhythmia. Good info for prescribing doctors.
If those observational, retrospective studies are valid so is the use of HCQ based on observations by practicing physicians. They are anecdotal, not controlled, experiments. Experiments not done as experiments. As such the other factors not mentioned in the records observed could skew results.
Most critically, no mention is made as to the time of the start of treatment, nor zinc. Nor a distinction between HCQ and chloroqine. Nor dosage. Nor comorbidities. We know that using HCQ without Zinc is sometimes ineffective. We know that HCQ started late is futile. It is an anti-viral, not a treatment for the disease COVID19.

You're listening to the right wing propaganda. The doctors are considering everything you say they aren't. Chloroquine kills Covid-19 patients.

Somehow I don't believe that the prophylactic dose of 200 mg once a week of a safety-tested drug would be a problem even in someone with arrhythmia.
Do you know someone who has taken HCQ for Lupus or something else? Any side effects?

You don't understand how drugs are evaluated. Drugs are tested in comparison to the best alternative. Malaria is nasty, when chloroquine was all they had it's what they used. That doesn't mean it has a good safety profile, only that it is safer than the malaria.

https://www.drugs.com/sfx/hydroxychloroquine-side-effects.html

 

[fromderinside]

Well here are two people I usually respect jawing at each other about drugs a stupid man is taking as a publicity stunt. You are both embarrassing yourselves with no dog in the fight. Better if you just say something like "poor, poor stupid man."

Stupid men doing stupid things desreve to be ignored.

 

[George S]

You don't understand how drugs are evaluated.

I worked for a major pharmaceutical manufacturer for the majority of my working life. I suspect I understand more than most how drugs are actually evaluated for FDA approval. I have worked with epidemiologists on programs to report and graph such trials.
I have seen multi-million-dollar research go to waste because of failing double-blind tests. I know the criteria and have been instrumental in refining data for the "package insert."
I, personally, not only understand it, but "been there, done that."
In my experience interviewing epidemiologists I have found that that they must report even the rarest of side-effects. Losartan is prescribed daily and ...

Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking losartan:

Less common

Blurred vision
burning, crawling, itching, numbness, prickling, "pins and needles", or tingling feelings
confusion
difficult breathing
dizziness
dizziness, faintness, or lightheadedness when getting up suddenly from a lying or sitting position
fainting
fast or irregular heartbeat
nausea or vomiting
nervousness
numbness or tingling in the hands, feet, or lips
stomach pain
sweating
unusual tiredness or weakness
weakness or heaviness of the legs


Incidence not known

Black, tarry stools
bleeding gums
blood in the urine or stools
coma
convulsions
cough
decreased urine output
difficulty swallowing
headache
hives, itching, skin rash
increased thirst
large, hive-like swelling on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, or sex organs
muscle pain or cramps
pinpoint red spots on the skin
puffiness or swelling of the eyelids or around the eyes, face, lips, or tongue
tightness in the chest
unusual bleeding or bruising
Side effects not requiring immediate medical attention
Some side effects of losartan may occur that usually do not need medical attention. These side effects may go away during treatment as your body adjusts to the medicine. Also, your health care professional may be able to tell you about ways to prevent or reduce some of these side effects.

Check with your health care professional if any of the following side effects continue or are bothersome or if you have any questions about them:

Less common

Body aches or pain
chills
continuing ringing or buzzing or other unexplained noise in the ears
decreased interest in sexual intercourse
difficulty having a bowel movement (stool)
ear congestion
feeling of constant movement of self or surroundings
feeling sad or empty
headache, severe and throbbing
hearing loss
inability to have or keep an erection
increased sensitivity of the skin to sunlight
irritability
lack of appetite
loss in sexual ability, desire, drive, or performance
loss of interest or pleasure
loss of voice
redness or other discoloration of the skin
sensation of spinning
severe sunburn
sneezing
sore throat
stuffy or runny nose
trouble concentrating
trouble sleeping


Incidence not known

Change or loss of taste
dark urine
general tiredness and weakness
light-colored stools
yellow eyes and skin

 

[southernhybrid]

But, regardless of whether or not one tolerates that drug, the study in the Lancet, which was quite impressive, came to the concussion that the drug was useless against the virus, therefore the risks, even if they are not that common, out weigh the benefit. I've read that Pepcid, Vitamin D, and Zinc have been thought to fight or prevent the virus, but I think we are all just desperate and want to believe there is something harmless out there that will magically help prevent or cure this virus.

And, I've read that some people who really need the HCQ for other chronic problems like Lupus, are having problems getting it because of the hoarding and misuse of the drug by people like the idiot in the WH. Let's not deprive those who need this drug for diseases that's it been proven to be effective in treating, have access to the drug.

 

[repoman]

Well here are two people I usually respect jawing at each other about drugs a stupid man is taking as a publicity stunt. You are both embarrassing yourselves with no dog in the fight. Better if you just say something like "poor, poor stupid man."

Stupid men doing stupid things desreve to be ignored.

Or just bullshitting that he is taking, which is more likely. His personal doctor would likely be in on that lie.

But if his doctor lets slip that Trump is fronting as usual that would be pretty cool

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You don't understand how drugs are evaluated.

I worked for a major pharmaceutical manufacturer for the majority of my working life. I suspect I understand more than most how drugs are actually evaluated for FDA approval. I have worked with epidemiologists on programs to report and graph such trials.
I have seen multi-million-dollar research go to waste because of failing double-blind tests. I know the criteria and have been instrumental in refining data for the "package insert."
I, personally, not only understand it, but "been there, done that."
In my experience interviewing epidemiologists I have found that that they must report even the rarest of side-effects. Losartan is prescribed daily and ...

You still miss the point. Drugs are evaluated against the alternative, "safety" is situational. Just because a drug is approved doesn't mean it's "safe".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But, regardless of whether or not one tolerates that drug, the study in the Lancet, which was quite impressive, came to the concussion that the drug was useless against the virus, therefore the risks, even if they are not that common, out weigh the benefit. I've read that Pepcid, Vitamin D, and Zinc have been thought to fight or prevent the virus, but I think we are all just desperate and want to believe there is something harmless out there that will magically help prevent or cure this virus.

I think there's something to the vitamin D bit--I have seen considerable speculation that a lot of people are actually deficient, just not to the point of obvious symptoms. I could easily believe a low-level deficiency could make you fare worse against a disease. There's also been an issue with selenium this way--a long study of using it against IIRC prostate cancer eventually concluded that it didn't help, but rather a deficiency harms.

 

[fromderinside]

Well here are two people I usually respect jawing at each other about drugs a stupid man is taking as a publicity stunt. You are both embarrassing yourselves with no dog in the fight. Better if you just say something like "poor, poor stupid man."

Stupid men doing stupid things deserve to be ignored.

Or just bullshitting that he is taking, which is more likely. His personal doctor would likely be in on that lie.

But if his doctor lets slip that Trump is fronting as usual that would be pretty cool

Losing weight repoman?

 

[barbos]

But, regardless of whether or not one tolerates that drug, the study in the Lancet, which was quite impressive, came to the concussion that the drug was useless against the virus, therefore the risks, even if they are not that common, out weigh the benefit. I've read that Pepcid, Vitamin D, and Zinc have been thought to fight or prevent the virus, but I think we are all just desperate and want to believe there is something harmless out there that will magically help prevent or cure this virus.

I think there's something to the vitamin D bit--I have seen considerable speculation that a lot of people are actually deficient, just not to the point of obvious symptoms. I could easily believe a low-level deficiency could make you fare worse against a disease. There's also been an issue with selenium this way--a long study of using it against IIRC prostate cancer eventually concluded that it didn't help, but rather a deficiency harms.

I could be contributing factor to apparently harder hit of of COVID blacks in US experience. They more likely to have Vitamin D deficiency.

 

[repoman]

So Bill Maher had a guest on who talked about PUFAs (poly unsaturated fatty acids) and Covid-19. Apparently the segment is not on Youtube or HBO.

I would not doubt that the guest might have oversold the damage from PUFAs or that a PUFA free diet will insure almost no risk from Covid-19.

But this medical report shows that PUFAs in high doses can be pretty nasty for respiratory health:

http://www.pulmonologyadvisor.com/home/topics/copd/chronic-obstructive-pulmonary-disease-exacerbations-and-omega-3-and-6-fatty-acids/

compare that to this

https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/healthy-eating/eat-smart/fats/polyunsaturated-fats

Where do they get their money from?

 

[barbos]

But, regardless of whether or not one tolerates that drug, the study in the Lancet, which was quite impressive, came to the concussion that the drug was useless against the virus, therefore the risks, even if they are not that common, out weigh the benefit. I've read that Pepcid, Vitamin D, and Zinc have been thought to fight or prevent the virus, but I think we are all just desperate and want to believe there is something harmless out there that will magically help prevent or cure this virus.

I think there's something to the vitamin D bit--I have seen considerable speculation that a lot of people are actually deficient, just not to the point of obvious symptoms. I could easily believe a low-level deficiency could make you fare worse against a disease. There's also been an issue with selenium this way--a long study of using it against IIRC prostate cancer eventually concluded that it didn't help, but rather a deficiency harms.

I could be contributing factor to apparently harder hit of of COVID blacks in US experience. They more likely to have Vitamin D deficiency.

LOL, it should be: "It could be contributing...."

 

[DBT]

Apparently the virus effects males worse than females, something like 60/40.

 

[J842P]

Apparently the virus effects males worse than females, something like 60/40.

First I've heard of the virus effecting males or females at all.

But in all seriousness, is this corrected for underlying conditions? Males, in general, tend to lead unhealthier lives. Smoking was a classic example, although in the US, as smoking has fallen overall, the relative rates of women smokers have increased and last I checked it was at about parity (although still slightly more men), but definitely, there are more previous smokers who are male. And I'd guess men have higher rates of diabetes, obesity, etc.

 

[DBT]

Apparently the virus effects males worse than females, something like 60/40.

First I've heard of the virus effecting males or females at all.

But in all seriousness, is this corrected for underlying conditions? Males, in general, tend to lead unhealthier lives. Smoking was a classic example, although in the US, as smoking has fallen overall, the relative rates of women smokers have increased and last I checked it was at about parity (although still slightly more men), but definitely, there are more previous smokers who are male. And I'd guess men have higher rates of diabetes, obesity, etc.

Animal studies confirmed the discrepancy, thought to be genetic or hormonal. According to the report, mice with ovaries removed lost their advantage.

 

[southernhybrid]

So Bill Maher had a guest on who talked about PUFAs (poly unsaturated fatty acids) and Covid-19. Apparently the segment is not on Youtube or HBO.

I would not doubt that the guest might have oversold the damage from PUFAs or that a PUFA free diet will insure almost no risk from Covid-19.

But this medical report shows that PUFAs in high doses can be pretty nasty for respiratory health:

http://www.pulmonologyadvisor.com/home/topics/copd/chronic-obstructive-pulmonary-disease-exacerbations-and-omega-3-and-6-fatty-acids/

compare that to this

https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/healthy-eating/eat-smart/fats/polyunsaturated-fats

Where do they get their money from?

I watched the show. I think Bill and his guest are full of shit, but I've always thought that there is not diet that fits all and that exercise is probably even more important than diet, assuming one gets enough protein and enough plant based foods. For example, my mother who is now on hospice is 94 years old. She had a terrible diet, very high in sugar and low in veggies. She always was very active and walked at least two miles a day until about two years ago when her dementia worsened. I eat lots of sweets, but I also eat enough vegetables, fish and small amounts of lean meats. My BMI is 20 and I do aerobic exercises at least six days a week. I haven't had as much as a cold in over 5 years, and haven't been sick with anything more serious in over 15 years. Maybe it's genetics and exercise that keep me healthy. Anyway, I'm just very skeptical that any one diet fits all.

I don't know about the vitamin D stuff. About ten years ago, Vitamin D was a huge fad, a cure for everything. My level has been low off and on. It was low again last year despite taking 2,000 units per day. I've been taking 5,000 units per day since last year but haven't had my level checked. yet. It's very common for older adults to be deficient in D. I've never been sick when my levels were low, so call me skeptical about the value of D.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/23/health/coronavirus-remdesivir.html

Nearly a month after federal scientists claimed that an experimental drug had helped patients severely ill with the coronavirus, the research has been published.
The drug, remdesivir, was quickly authorized by the Food and Drug Administration for treatment of coronavirus patients, and hospitals rushed to obtain supplies.
But until now, researchers and physicians had not seen the actual data. And remdesivir, made by Gilead Sciences, has a spotty history. It was originally intended to treat hepatitis, but it failed to. It was tested against Ebola, but results were lackluster.

The details are in the article, but basically remdesivir is no miracle drug. it does usually decrease the number of days hospitalization. Oh here, I'll quote some more.

The trial was rigorous, randomly assigning 1,063 seriously ill patients to receive either remdesivir or a placebo. Those who received the drug not only recovered faster but also did not have serious adverse events more often than those who were given the placebo.
It was an international trial, although most sites were in the United States. Patients were assessed daily, and those administering the evaluations did not know whether a patient had been given remdesivir or the placebo.

The best outcome would have been a decline in the death rate among patients given remdesivir, but there were only hints that this had occurred.
Despite generally positive results, the researchers caution that the drug is far from ideal.

“Given high mortality despite the use of remdesivir, it is clear that treatment with an antiviral drug alone is not likely to be sufficient,” they concluded.

So, apparently, we still have a long way to go before something effective is found to treat or prevent this horrible virus.

 

[repoman]

Did you read about omega-6 PUFAs from that first article?

If I knew I just got infected with Covid-19 I would feel a bit more safe if I had a diet very low in them. But I would not get cocky.

 

[southernhybrid]

Did you read about omega-6 PUFAs from that first article?

If I knew I just got infected with Covid-19 I would feel a bit more safe if I had a diet very low in them. But I would not get cocky.

I did a quick read. My diet is high in omega-3, not omega-6. I guess I don't have to worry, right? . We do use some cooking oils that are omega-6, I think. But I eat salmon, tuna, nuts etc. several times a week. I'm just not too worried about my diet. Bill Maher seems to think that sugar kills us, but I strongly disagree. Most animals are attracted to sweet things. Breast milk is high in natural sugars. Of course, if sweets are the primary part of your diet, that's bad. As I said earlier, I don't believe that any one diet is right for everyone. Look at the history of diets. Humans have been eating a huge variety of foods throughout history. In fact, there has been some evidence that meat helped us develop our big brains. I'm not saying that one can't be healthy on a vegan diet, considering all the foods that are available to modern humans, but it takes more planning to get adequate protein and iron form an all plant based diet.

So, my diet plan is moderation in all things. Don't eat more calories than your body can metabolize. Eat lots of fiber. It's important and only 2/3rds of the calories in fiber are absorbed, and it will keep your GI system free of clogs. . Try to eat at least five servings of veggies and fruits daily, etc. I just doubt that any one way of eating is going to help us from getting sick.

Of course there are risk factors to dying or having severe complications from COVID-19. Obesity is one of the biggest risk factors, and many but not all obese folks suffer from hypertension, or diabetes, two bit risk factors for complications from CIVID-19.

I don't fat shame. I know that obesity is a disease that we are learning a lot about. But, I digress.

 

[J842P]

Apparently the virus effects males worse than females, something like 60/40.

First I've heard of the virus effecting males or females at all.

But in all seriousness, is this corrected for underlying conditions? Males, in general, tend to lead unhealthier lives. Smoking was a classic example, although in the US, as smoking has fallen overall, the relative rates of women smokers have increased and last I checked it was at about parity (although still slightly more men), but definitely, there are more previous smokers who are male. And I'd guess men have higher rates of diabetes, obesity, etc.

Animal studies confirmed the discrepancy, thought to be genetic or hormonal. According to the report, mice with ovaries removed lost their advantage.

Interesting.