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Corporate Moochers - how to spot them

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
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It seems, if your company is _unable_ to make a satisfactory profit without the government assisting your employees in staying alive through food, medicaid and welfare, then you are kind of a "taker," right? A moocher? A Welfare Queen? If you can't make a profit without government help, then your business is not a "job creator."

So if you pay employees so little that they cannot afford basic food and housing and medical care, then your business is expecting the government to keep your workers alive. THE CORPORATION is on welfare. If the corporation complains that paying a living wage will put them out of business, then you are already out of business, you're just on government life support mooching right now.
 
What a string of non sequiturs. I don't think there's a single conclusion in there that follows from the premises.
 
And if you close up shop is *ANYONE* better off? Not that I see. If removing your actions betters nobody then how can you be doing harm?
 
Argeed

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It seems, if your company is _unable_ to make a satisfactory profit without the government assisting your employees in staying alive through food, medicaid and welfare, then you are kind of a "taker," right? A moocher? A Welfare Queen? If you can't make a profit without government help, then your business is not a "job creator."

So if you pay employees so little that they cannot afford basic food and housing and medical care, then your business is expecting the government to keep your workers alive. THE CORPORATION is on welfare. If the corporation complains that paying a living wage will put them out of business, then you are already out of business, you're just on government life support mooching right now.
 
It's a basic equation of the supply and demand for labour. If Walmart employees had the skills to make more money somewhere else, they would, but they don't have those skills so they stay. If they're not really contributing much, and thousands of others can do what they do, why should their wages be high?

You could make an argument that they're dependent on society so are owed social safety nets, but I think that's what minimum wage and the welfare you speak of are about. You could also make an argument that unreasonably superfluous corporate profits should be re-distributed or the minimum wage should be higher, but I don't buy that it's the responsibility of corporations, or that it's even possible that corporations can act outside of their own interests given the set of regulations they find themselves in.
 
It seems, if your company is _unable_ to make a satisfactory profit without the government assisting your employees in staying alive through food, medicaid and welfare, then you are kind of a "taker," right? A moocher? A Welfare Queen? If you can't make a profit without government help, then your business is not a "job creator."

So if you pay employees so little that they cannot afford basic food and housing and medical care, then your business is expecting the government to keep your workers alive. THE CORPORATION is on welfare. If the corporation complains that paying a living wage will put them out of business, then you are already out of business, you're just on government life support mooching right now.

I don't think it serves much of a purpose to say that governmental assistance to people who aren't paid well is the same thing as corporate welfare, especially since there exists so many different examples of unequivocal corporate welfare. That is, I don't think that governmental assistance to low-income people allows a company to make a profit it wouldn't make anyway. Many large employers payed people very low wages, well below a living wage, in decades and centuries past and made plenty of profit.
 
J842P - You have a point that actual Corporate Welfare is a real problem and should not be diluted. Yet this is still corporate welfare to a degree and here's why I say it:

The "supply and demand" says that the employees **MUST** look for work to receive benefits in many cases. Yet they aren't just getting a low-wage job that is only worth low wages. The Walmart Corp makes MASSIVE profits. The system is forcing these people to take any old job - I'd be okay with that except when someone is making a monstrous unreasonable profit off their labor. The government - that is the rest of us should join in the collective bargaining that says, you want these people, you pay them enough to not need public assistance for as long as you are making profits. If your company is not making a profit - if it's working for zero, then by all means, give the people some jobs. But when your CEO is making hundreds of times their wages, then you are ripping off the rest of the people by paying your worker so little that they need welfare.

I have a really really large problem with a company making profits - huge profits - while requiring aid from welfare to keep their employees alive.
 
It's a basic equation of the supply and demand for labour. If Walmart employees had the skills to make more money somewhere else, they would, but they don't have those skills so they stay. If they're not really contributing much, and thousands of others can do what they do, why should their wages be high?

This is the big reason I hate libertarianism so much. Labor is simply a matter of supply and demand to the economic theory. Fuck no! Labor is people. Real humans. Fellow citizens of our country (in this case).

An economic systems should serve the people. Not the other way around.
 
It seems, if your company is _unable_ to make a satisfactory profit without the government assisting your employees in staying alive through food, medicaid and welfare, then you are kind of a "taker," right? A moocher? A Welfare Queen? If you can't make a profit without government help, then your business is not a "job creator."

So if you pay employees so little that they cannot afford basic food and housing and medical care, then your business is expecting the government to keep your workers alive. THE CORPORATION is on welfare. If the corporation complains that paying a living wage will put them out of business, then you are already out of business, you're just on government life support mooching right now.

It's never mooching when a large and successful corporation does it! In this scenario, the employees are moochers, but the employers are great and noble job creators who make our economy better. Why do you hate freedom? Why do you hate America? [/conservolibertarian]
 
J842P - You have a point that actual Corporate Welfare is a real problem and should not be diluted. Yet this is still corporate welfare to a degree and here's why I say it:

The "supply and demand" says that the employees **MUST** look for work to receive benefits in many cases.
Huh? It's politicians who say that, not supply and demand.

Yet they aren't just getting a low-wage job that is only worth low wages. The Walmart Corp makes MASSIVE profits. The system is forcing these people to take any old job - I'd be okay with that except when someone is making a monstrous unreasonable profit off their labor.
Do you have any basis, apart from faith in the metaphysical Labor Theory of Value, to believe that how much a job is worth is determined by an employer's profits and that the profits are made "off their labor"? A business is a synergistic operation -- the income is generated by the complicated interaction of many different inputs. There's no objective way to compute the contribution to total production in dollars of each input and add them up to get the total income.

Incidentally, when you call a profit "monstrous" and "unreasonable", is that judgment based on emotion or reason? If the latter, what reason makes a profit unreasonable?

The government - that is the rest of us should join in the collective bargaining that says, you want these people, you pay them enough to not need public assistance for as long as you are making profits. If your company is not making a profit - if it's working for zero, then by all means, give the people some jobs. But when your CEO is making hundreds of times their wages, then you are ripping off the rest of the people by paying your worker so little that they need welfare.
What evidence do you have that that implies they're ripping off the rest of the people? That's a meme that gets recited over and over among a certain subculture, but I've never seen it supported with an argument that makes a lick of sense. It appears to be an article of religious faith. Forcing people to conform to the tenets of other people's religions is of course par for the course with governments; but claiming on a freethought board that that's something we should be doing calls for a little more argument than "Welfare is a subsidy to the employer. It really really is. What I tell you three times is true."
 
It's a basic equation of the supply and demand for labour. If Walmart employees had the skills to make more money somewhere else, they would, but they don't have those skills so they stay. If they're not really contributing much, and thousands of others can do what they do, why should their wages be high?

This is the big reason I hate libertarianism so much. Labor is simply a matter of supply and demand to the economic theory. Fuck no! Labor is people. Real humans. Fellow citizens of our country (in this case).

An economic systems should serve the people. Not the other way around.

That I agree with. I still don't believe that it's the responsibility of private enterprise to enforce, though. It's the responsibility of government to ensure it's people are provided for in whatever way possible.
 
It seems, if your company is _unable_ to make a satisfactory profit without the government assisting your employees in staying alive through food, medicaid and welfare, then you are kind of a "taker," right? A moocher? A Welfare Queen? If you can't make a profit without government help, then your business is not a "job creator."

So if you pay employees so little that they cannot afford basic food and housing and medical care, then your business is expecting the government to keep your workers alive. THE CORPORATION is on welfare. If the corporation complains that paying a living wage will put them out of business, then you are already out of business, you're just on government life support mooching right now.
As members of society, corporations directly and indirectly benefit from publicly funded infrastructure and services. Those corporations who avoid paying their share for those services are moochers.
 
There's no objective way to compute the contribution to total production in dollars of each input and add them up to get the total income.
Seems to me that you have just undercut your argument. If there is no objective way to compute the contribution to total production of each input, then there is way to determine the "objective" return for each input. That implies the return to each input, including labor, is subjective. If the return to every input is subjective, it would seem that it would be difficult to make a claim that any input is being underpaid or overpaid.

I suppose the subjectivity of this topic is the source of your persistent free market memes and snide commentary.
 
There's no objective way to compute the contribution to total production in dollars of each input and add them up to get the total income.
Seems to me that you have just undercut your argument. If there is no objective way to compute the contribution to total production of each input, then there is way to determine the "objective" return for each input. That implies the return to each input, including labor, is subjective. If the return to every input is subjective, it would seem that it would be difficult to make a claim that any input is being underpaid or overpaid.
Yes. How does that undercut my argument? Did I claim somebody was being underpaid or overpaid?

I suppose the subjectivity of this topic is the source of your persistent free market memes
Well, I haven't seen a lot of good arguments for why when A and B swap stuff with each other their exchange rate should be dictated by C's preference orderings. The subjectivity of value has been standard economic theory for over a hundred years. If you disagree with it, can you produce a falsifiable prediction derived from a theory of objective value?

and snide commentary.
I'm not the one who called people moochers for paying more for a voluntary service than anybody else was willing to pay for it and in the process saving the state money on top of paying the legislated tax on their purchase. Snide in, snide out.
 
There's no objective way to compute the contribution to total production in dollars of each input and add them up to get the total income.
Seems to me that you have just undercut your argument. If there is no objective way to compute the contribution to total production of each input, then there is way to determine the "objective" return for each input. That implies the return to each input, including labor, is subjective. If the return to every input is subjective, it would seem that it would be difficult to make a claim that any input is being underpaid or overpaid.
Yes. How does that undercut my argument? Did I claim somebody was being underpaid or overpaid?
Try to focus, if the return to any input is subjective, you really have no objective basis to criticize someone else's views on the matter. Hence your objections to Rhea's views reflect your views and do not reflect objective criticism.

Well, I haven't seen a lot of good arguments for why when A and B swap stuff with each other their exchange rate should be dictated by C's preference orderings. The subjectivity of value has been standard economic theory for over a hundred years. If you disagree with it, can you produce a falsifiable prediction derived from a theory of objective value?
The point of this string of non-sequiturs is...?
I'm not the one who called people moochers for paying more for a voluntary service than anybody else was willing to pay for it and in the process saving the state money on top of paying the legislated tax on their purchase. Snide in, snide out.
Okay, then you won't mind me asking when do you graduate from middle school?
 
J842P - You have a point that actual Corporate Welfare is a real problem and should not be diluted. Yet this is still corporate welfare to a degree and here's why I say it:

The "supply and demand" says that the employees **MUST** look for work to receive benefits in many cases. Yet they aren't just getting a low-wage job that is only worth low wages. The Walmart Corp makes MASSIVE profits. The system is forcing these people to take any old job - I'd be okay with that except when someone is making a monstrous unreasonable profit off their labor.
Ok, I just wanted to address one thing before getting into the meat of your argument.
"Supply and demand" does not say that employees must look for work to receive benefits. That isn't something decided by a market - that's a government action. It would have to be government action for it to be corporate welfare.


The government - that is the rest of us should join in the collective bargaining that says, you want these people, you pay them enough to not need public assistance for as long as you are making profits.

Now, it seems to me that the public would be much wiser if it simply did not make employment a stipulation for public assistance, since that seems to be at the root of the problem.

The idea that the government assistance allows Walmart to make it's profits by providing it with a labor force doesn't make any sense. If there were no government assistance, or even no government and no government assistance, that labor force would still be there. If one were to argue otherwise, that would suggest to me that there would be sufficient deaths by starvation or by other means if the government didn't provide assistance, and I don't buy that. The only sort of angle I would find believable is if you are arguing that by providing some assistance and stipulating current employment as a part of that assistance, this incentivizes workers to accept lower wages for these low-wage positions. But then we are back to where we started, and it seems to me that the solution is not to stipulate employment requirement for assistance. The ideal solution, I am beginning to believe, is some sort of guaranteed minimum income.

Regardless, I just can't bring myself to say that it is accurate to call government assistance corporate welfare.

It makes a lot more sense to say that the public infrastructure that allows Walmart to have it's sophisticated inventory management systems, which is at the heart of their success and profits, might count as some sort of welfare to the corporate entity known as Walmart, but even that is stretching the term for me.

If your company is not making a profit - if it's working for zero, then by all means, give the people some jobs. But when your CEO is making hundreds of times their wages, then you are ripping off the rest of the people by paying your worker so little that they need welfare.

I have a really really large problem with a company making profits - huge profits - while requiring aid from welfare to keep their employees alive.

I'm sorry, but I just don't think those are rationally compelling arguments. They are tailored to be emotionally compelling. So, consider the argument that Walmart should be able to pay their waged employees more because their CEO makes absurd amounts of money. Walmart's CEO gets payed 35 million (totally absurd), and there are approximately 1.5 million Americans employed by Walmart. If they didn't pay their CEO any salary, that only gives you about 35/1.5 = 23.33 dollars more per year for the employees. As a likely low estimate, one could assume that around 50% of the employees are waged (the ones we care about when discussing low-income). That still gives you less than $50 per year for waged employees.

Now lets take a look at the profits Walmart makes. What happens with that money? Surely, we would want to understand the money if we are going to be using the force of government to potentially lower it.

Here's a pdf containing Walmart's 2013 financial statements:

http://stock.walmart.com/microsites/annual-report-2013/pdf/Walmart_2013_Fin.pdf

The document we are interested in is their statement of income on page numbered 32.

Right off the bat, we see that their net income is almost 16 billion. That's a staggering number. Even more staggering is that their net sales are close to half a trillion. But anyway, we want to talk about profits and what is happening with those profits. The 16 billions number is just accounting profits, so let's look at their statement of cash flows on the page numbered 35. Here we can see how much cash they actually made, their net cash provided by operating activities, and it's a hefty 25.6 billion. But that money isn't just gold coins in a huge vault that the CEO of Walmart periodically sleeps on top of, and sometimes takes a few of those coins to toss at the street urchins while on carriage rides through the park. Most of that cash is invested back into the business and goes back into the economy. A significant chunk is also payed in income taxes. For a detailed breakdown, check out page numbered 48. They payed about 8 billion of the 25 billion in taxes, at an effective rate of about 30 percent. But don't forget about the dividends! Looking back at page numbered 35, and the dividends payed equaled about 5 billion. That's money payed directly to shareholders, many of which are ordinary people with retirement portfolios.

It seems to me that there is a lot of implicit moral outrage at Walmart making lots of profits, as if these enormous figures ended up as money in a couple of peoples bank accounts. That money is invested, and additionally, since Walmart is a publicly traded company, that is money that is going directly to shareholders, i.e. anyone who owns Walmart stock. Also, Walmart pays a big chunk of that money straight into public coffers.
 
Wal-Mart is (in)famous for successfully avoiding paying taxes and for playing localities off one another for tax breaks - a clear indication of corporate moochery.
 
Wal-Mart is (in)famous for successfully avoiding paying taxes and for playing localities off one another for tax breaks - a clear indication of corporate moochery.

Smart business, imo.

Two people arrive at your door and ask you if you'd like your lawn cut, one of them is charging 30 and the other 10 for identical service, and everything else is equal. Who do you choose? The cheaper option 10 times out of 10. Now apply that concept to a giant entity filled with individuals whose livelihoods depend on not making waves within the company and simultaneously acting in the best interests of the company. As long as they are acting legally there can be no other way.

This is why it's the problem of government and politics.
 
Wal-Mart is (in)famous for successfully avoiding paying taxes and for playing localities off one another for tax breaks - a clear indication of corporate moochery.

So let me get this straight, you are claiming that Walmart did not pay an effective rate of around 30 percent on it's income in 2013, contrary to what they claim on their financial statements?

Perhaps I am reading the statements wrong, or not interpreting them correctly? I am not particularly at home reading these kinds of things.
 
Wal-Mart is (in)famous for successfully avoiding paying taxes and for playing localities off one another for tax breaks - a clear indication of corporate moochery.

So let me get this straight, you are claiming that Walmart did not pay an effective rate of around 30 percent on it's income in 2013, contrary to what they claim on their financial statements?
It's fairly obvious he meant avoiding other types of taxes not simply what they pay in income tax. Only a small percentage of cities and municipalities in America have a local income tax.
 
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