Could our actions be decided by our conscious mind?

[DBT]

Again, your conclusion: ''Therefore, for all we know, what somebody does may be determined by the conscious mind of this person'' - implies that conscious mind itself may have the ability to determine what somebody does
This contradicts your premises; ''somebody's conscious mind may be the state of a group of neurons in this person's brain'' and ''What somebody does is determined by the state of a group of neurons in this person's brain'' because your premises point to brain/neuronal agency for conscious mind, therefore brain state/condition/agency as the determining factor for how someones conscious mind is being expressed, including all consequent actions...not the conscious mind.

You can't have it both ways, that it is neural networks determine mind and action, and that mind inexplicable has the power of determining a persons actions

It also implies a division between the person and his mind and brain. There is no division. The brain is the sole agent of cognition and action.

Your conclusion is something that Mr Untermensche himself could have wrote, that being his belief.

Never mind.
EB

Fine.

 

[Speakpigeon]

Happy New Year to all our customers!

EB is a creature of intellectual habit. Continually going in circles of conditioned responses.

Enlightenment is realizing your own conditioned responses.

The management is happy to congratulate you for your renewed interested in our production. However, we decline any responsibility for any damage to your mental equipoise that might result from your excessive addiction.

We do wish you a very happy New Year and look forward to read you again in 2019.
The EB Management

 

[steve_bank]

EB is a creature of intellectual habit. Continually going in circles of conditioned responses.

Enlightenment is realizing your own conditioned responses.

The management is happy to congratulate you for your renewed interested in our production. However, we decline any responsibility for any damage to your mental equipoise that might result from your excessive addiction.

We do wish you a very happy New Year and look forward to read you again in 2019.
The EB Management

An entirely predictable conditioned response. You are under our control but yet to realize it.

 

[ryan]

Thank you to discuss the following argument, its two premises and its validity.

Premise 1 - For all we know, somebody's conscious mind may be the state of a group of neurons in this person's brain;
Premise 2 - What somebody does is determined by the state of a group of neurons in this person's brain;
Conclusion - Therefore, for all we know, what somebody does may be determined by the conscious mind of this person.
EB

Thank you to restrict yourself to facts and logic.
EB

Before I answer, I just want to make sure of something.

Are you using "mind" and "neural state" interchangeably, as in it is a matter of semantics? Or is "mind" a property of "neural state" where if you were to remove the mind property, then there would be something missing from the "neural state"?

 

[Elixir]

I only assert absolute truths that cannot be questioned.

Delusional

Like, the absolute truth I must do something with my mind to get my arm to move as a I chose.

Yeah, until a fly lands on your nose.
It must be hell to live in your body, where the mind, the self and the arm are three different entities.


Absolute truth: You're full of shit about yourself, and have written as much self adoring fantasy on this forum as has the lowliest trumpsucker. "I only assert absolute truths that cannot be questioned" is a classic rubric of the delusional narcissist. Furthermore, I QUESTION IT. Ergo it is a lie.
QED

 

[untermensche]

I only assert absolute truths that cannot be questioned.

Delusional

Like, the absolute truth I must do something with my mind to get my arm to move as a I chose.

Yeah, until a fly lands on your nose.
It must be hell to live in your body, where the mind, the self and the arm are three different entities.


Absolute truth: You're full of shit about yourself, and have written as much self adoring fantasy on this forum as has the lowliest trumpsucker. "I only assert absolute truths that cannot be questioned" is a classic rubric of the delusional narcissist. Furthermore, I QUESTION IT. Ergo it is a lie.
QED

How exactly did you write all that nonsense if you are unable to command your body to do it?

It is an ABSOLUTE TRUTH I must do something with my mind to move my arm as I desire it to move.

It does not just move.

If you doubt this you are deluded.

 

[Elixir]

Delusional



Yeah, until a fly lands on your nose.
It must be hell to live in your body, where the mind, the self and the arm are three different entities.


Absolute truth: You're full of shit about yourself, and have written as much self adoring fantasy on this forum as has the lowliest trumpsucker. "I only assert absolute truths that cannot be questioned" is a classic rubric of the delusional narcissist. Furthermore, I QUESTION IT. Ergo it is a lie.
QED

How exactly did you write all that nonsense if you are unable to command your body to do it?

It is an ABSOLUTE TRUTH I must do something with my mind to move my arm as I desire it to move.

It does not just move.

If you doubt this you are deluded.

Read and learn, little one:

Fried is one of a handful of neurosurgeons in the world who perform the delicate procedure of inserting electrodes into a living human brain, and using them to record activity from individual neurons. He does this to pin down the source of debilitating seizures in the brains of epileptic patients. Once he locates the part of the patients’ brains that sparks off the seizures, he can remove it, pulling the plug on their neuronal electrical storms.

Such epileptic seizures are random. No one knows when to expect them, so after the electrodes are implanted everybody sits around and waits. This gives researchers a unique opportunity to observe human neurons in action: During the wait, patients may volunteer to participate in experiments, allowing scientists to discover what functions the recorded neurons carry out. The invasive surgery required to implant electrodes (performed routinely in animals like rats and monkeys for research) cannot be done in humans unless a medical condition (such as epilepsy that does not respond to drugs) calls for it. Such investigations are, therefore, rare.

Fried and his colleagues implanted electrodes in twelve patients, recording from a total of 1019 neurons. They adopted an experimental procedure that Benjamin Libet, a pioneer of research on free will at the University of California, San Francisco, developed almost thirty years ago: They had their patients look at a hand sweeping around a clock-face, asked them to press a button whenever they wanted to, and then had them indicate where the hand had been pointing when they decided to press the button. This provides a precise time for an action (the push) as well as the decision to act. With these data the experimenters can then look for neurons whose activity correlated with the will to act.

Such neurons, they found, abound in a region of the frontal lobe called the supplementary motor area, which is involved in the planning of movements. But here is the interesting thing: about a quarter of these neurons began to change their activity before the time patients declared as the moment they felt the urge to press the button. The change began as long as a second and a half before the decision, and as early as seven tenths of a second before it, this activity was robust enough that the researchers could predict with over 80 percent accuracy not only whether a movement had occurred, but when the decision to make it happened.

So it turns out that there are neurons in your brain that know you are about to make a movement the better part of a second before you know it yourself.

 

[untermensche]

What you mean is your mind causes the brain to prepare for a movement before the mind commands the movement.

I have been through that nonsense many times.

It is nothing but delusional thinking.

The zombie model of consciousness is absolute delusion. It can only be believed by people who have never tried to get a person to walk again after a stroke. It can only be believed by people who have no responsibility over anyone. It could only be believed by superfluous dreamers who don't actually do anything.

I could not say that unless it were true.

How do you think you arrive at the things you believe?

 

[Elixir]

What you mean is your mind causes the brain to prepare for a movement before the mind commands the movement.

Oh - so now you have a brain, a mind, a self and an arm all as discrete units.
LOL, maybe you should try adding a few more, before another example of action without awareness raises its ugly head.
As a matter of fact I HAVE helped re-hab someone who had a stroke (my brother) and it consists mainly of re-establishing pathways for unconscious action. Walking a single step can require coordination of up to 200 muscles. Of course, you believe that your ... what? mind? brain? self? ... is in conscious control of each of those 200 muscles at all times. But that's a lie.
For the stoke patient they each have to be re-trained consciously until conscious activation of those muscles at the proper intensity and in the proper order can be accomplished without thought. Until it reaches that point, there is no "recovery".

 

[untermensche]

What you are is a mind. That is how ideas can be understood and sorted and presented. Ideas only exist in a mind.

And the mind is created by some fraction of unknown brain activity. No activity, no mind.

And the brain is connected to a body.

And the mind can command the brain to move the body.

It appears there is a preparatory phase. A time where the mind can say "no" or "yes".

That is all you have said.

You are putting forth the delusional model of consciousness. There model that says there is awareness of doing something with the mind to move the arm but it is just a delusion.

And using a free mind to do it.

It is very funny.

 

[Elixir]

What you are is a mind. That is how ideas can be understood and sorted and presented. Ideas only exist in a mind.

And the mind is created by some fraction of unknown brain activity. No activity, no mind.

And the brain is connected to a body.

And the mind can command the brain to move the body.

The brain can move the body with or without a command from the mind. This has been shown to you.

Just so you know - anyone who says "I only assert absolute truths that cannot be questioned" is not someone worth paying attention to.
Of course that's just my opinion, based on interactions with drug crazed wackos afflicted with Jesus complexes... so maybe you can find some adoring followers who will hang on your every word. Best way to winnow them out from the crowd is to tell peopleas soon as you meet them - "I only assert absolute truths that cannot be questioned"

And good luck!
Bye.

 

[untermensche]

What you are is a mind. That is how ideas can be understood and sorted and presented. Ideas only exist in a mind.

And the mind is created by some fraction of unknown brain activity. No activity, no mind.

And the brain is connected to a body.

And the mind can command the brain to move the body.

The brain can move the body with or without a command from the mind. This has been shown to you.

I never claimed that wasn't so.

You don't have the slightest clue what my position is.

Movement can be reflexive. This is very unproductive and spastic movement, like the patellar reflex. Movement can come directly from the spinal cord, not needing the brain.



Reflexive movement can also come from the brain. The lower parts of the brain. This is more productive but it is still spastic and not finely controlled, like the startle reflex and startle response.

The startle reflex is a brainstem reflectory reaction (reflex) that serves to protect vulnerable parts, such as the back of the neck (whole-body startle) and the eyes (eyeblink) and facilitates escape from sudden stimuli. It is found across the lifespan of many species. An individual's emotional state may lead to a variety of responses.[2] The startle response is implicated in the formation of specific phobias.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Startle_response

And movement can be directed by the mind.

With practice this kind of movement can become incredibly complicated and precise.

We call this movement, voluntary movement.

It is like telling somebody to stand a certain way and swing a golf club a certain way.

At first the mind doesn't really understand the movement but with practice the mind can learn to control the movement easily. The brain actually changes to help.

Just so you know - anyone who says "I only assert absolute truths that cannot be questioned" is not someone worth paying attention to.

None of that follows. There is no logic to any of that.

But what I say is I speak absolute truth then name the truth I'm talking about.

Like the absolute truth I must do something with my mind to cause my arm to move as I desire.

The absolute truth that it does not move as I desire until I do that something with my mind.

 

[ryan]

And movement can be directed by the mind.

With practice this kind of movement can become incredibly complicated and precise.

We call this movement, voluntary movement.

...

The absolute truth that it does not move as I desire until I do that something with my mind.

How do you know that control is not an illusion of the mind?

It might be like being on a boat with a driver doing everything you want it to do in a parallel way. And the driver is generating the parallel mind like smoke coming from a steam engine while having no impact on what the train/engine does.

 

[untermensche]

And movement can be directed by the mind.

With practice this kind of movement can become incredibly complicated and precise.

We call this movement, voluntary movement.

...

The absolute truth that it does not move as I desire until I do that something with my mind.

How do you know that control is not an illusion of the mind?

It might be like being on a boat with a driver doing everything you want it to do in a parallel way. And the driver is generating the parallel mind like smoke coming from a steam engine while having no impact on what the train/engine does.

There is no reason to think that is happening.

It defies parsimony to imagine it is true since it is not necessary.

And it defies biological principles.

If the body is acting but making the mind think it is acting that is wasted energy.

If the brain can just act why create a mind that thinks it is doing something to move the arm? That defies reason.

 

[ryan]

And movement can be directed by the mind.

With practice this kind of movement can become incredibly complicated and precise.

We call this movement, voluntary movement.

...

The absolute truth that it does not move as I desire until I do that something with my mind.

How do you know that control is not an illusion of the mind?

It might be like being on a boat with a driver doing everything you want it to do in a parallel way. And the driver is generating the parallel mind like smoke coming from a steam engine while having no impact on what the train/engine does.

There is no reason to think that is happening.

It defies parsimony to imagine it is true since it is not necessary.

And it defies biological principles.

If the body is acting but making the mind think it is acting that is wasted energy.

If the brain can just act why create a mind that thinks it is doing something to move the arm? That defies reason.

In this version of the mind, the mind uses no energy. Only the physical uses the energy.

 

[untermensche]

That's just fantasy.

You're claiming the brain is creating an illusion for some reason.

That takes energy.

Why is the brain creating this illusion? A powerless illusion serves no purpose.

 

[ryan]

That's just fantasy.

You're claiming the brain is creating an illusion for some reason.

That takes energy.

Why is the brain creating this illusion? A powerless illusion serves no purpose.

That's pretty much it except in this proposal (property duality (epiphenomenalism)) the mind is not energy, but rather a poperty of energy/matter.

From Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy "Epiphenomenalism is the view that mental events are caused by physical events in the brain, but have no effects upon any physical events. "

I am not saying this is the case, but rather a possibility.

 

[Speakpigeon]

You two are not addressing the topic of this thread. Please go outside to talk past each other. It's just indecent here.



For those who might be interested, thank you to discuss the following argument, its two premises and its validity.

Premise 1 - For all we know, somebody's conscious mind may be the state of a group of neurons in this person's brain;
Premise 2 - What somebody does is determined by the state of a group of neurons in this person's brain;
Conclusion - Therefore, for all we know, what somebody does may be determined by the conscious mind of this person.
EB

Thank you to address the argument as worded, and to restrict yourself to facts and logic.
EB

 

[ryan]

You two are not addressing the topic of this thread. Please go outside to talk past each other. It's just indecent here.



For those who might be interested, thank you to discuss the following argument, its two premises and its validity.

Premise 1 - For all we know, somebody's conscious mind may be the state of a group of neurons in this person's brain;
Premise 2 - What somebody does is determined by the state of a group of neurons in this person's brain;
Conclusion - Therefore, for all we know, what somebody does may be determined by the conscious mind of this person.
EB

Thank you to address the argument as worded, and to restrict yourself to facts and logic.
EB

Of course this is valid, the way you put it.

But I would argue P1. If the mind is (in a restricted sense) a group of neurons, then you are just giving the group of neurons a new name.

 

[Speakpigeon]

You two are not addressing the topic of this thread. Please go outside to talk past each other. It's just indecent here.

For those who might be interested, thank you to discuss the following argument, its two premises and its validity.

Premise 1 - For all we know, somebody's conscious mind may be the state of a group of neurons in this person's brain;
Premise 2 - What somebody does is determined by the state of a group of neurons in this person's brain;
Conclusion - Therefore, for all we know, what somebody does may be determined by the conscious mind of this person.
EB

Thank you to address the argument as worded, and to restrict yourself to facts and logic.
EB

Of course this is valid, the way you put it.

Of course it is valid, but is it sound? If not, the conclusion can be rejected.

If you think the premises are sound, then you have to accept the conclusion as logically following from the premises. Something DBT doesn't seem to understand.

But I would argue P1. If the mind is (in a restricted sense) a group of neurons, then you are just giving the group of neurons a new name.

No. "Is" here obviously has ontological force. It's not just a name. If it is the case that my conscious mind is the state of a group of neurons inside my brain, then that's it. It's ontologically the case that I am the state of a group of neurons. I think, therefore I am but the state of a group of neurons.

And you're not really "arguing" anything much if that doesn't make the premise false.
EB