Could you live without plastic?

[southernhybrid]

I don't think it's that easy to get rid of plastic. Plastic bags are a tiny part of the problem. Here's a list of things that come in plastic.

Berries and small tomatoes come in plastic containers.

Liquid dish soap

Laundry detergent and fabric softener

Shampoo

Conditioner and other hair products

Lipstick and many other make up containers come in plastic containers

You can use cloth grocery bags, but you need plastic bags when you buy loose, fresh produce as very few stores provide paper bags anymore

Most of the things that come in containers use plastic. I bought two pens last week. They were in packages that contained plastic, plus the pens were plastic.

Nail clippers, and nail files usually come in packages that contain plastic.

OTC and Rx. medications come in plastic containers

Infant and adult diapers have plastic coverings on them. You can use cloth diapers on a baby, but not so much on an incontinent adult.

Syringes for injections are made of single use plastic

Cleaning products like windex, furniture polish, etc.

Car washing products come in plastic containers as do

Deodorant

Toothpaste

Body lotions that moisturize dry skin

Lubes like Pjur, and KY jelly etc.

Many single use medical supplies are also made from plastic

I'm sure there are many more that we don't even think about. Oh, and then there's bubble wrap used in packaging.

Plastic bottles of water and soft drinks. I almost forgot about them.

Plastic cups, plates and silverware are usually found in fast food restaurants.

I know there is a type of biodegradable plastic but it's not used very often.

I read recently about a place in Africa where the women are collecting plastic that is used to make plastic bricks to build new schools. Great idea, but how many plastic bricks will the rest of the world use?

The point of the OP and the original article was meant to point out how difficult it is to greatly reduce our dependence on single use plastic, not to argue. I'm sure people who use cloth grocery bags are well meaning, but if you think that's doing much to help reduce single use plastic, I'm sorry, but it's not. Unless big industry and governments decide to tackle this plastic problem, I'm afraid that we will continue to fuck up the oceans etc. Hind site of course is 20/20. Nobody thought of the consequences of using so much plastic when it all began, but now what?

Someone told me that Kroger is going to switch to paper bags in the near future. Okay. That's nice, but will it really do much good? I'm not convinced. Aldi uses paper bags at the check out but their produce and meats are all wrapped in plastic. Seems pretty hopeless to me.

I have to respect the young, energetic men that started the movement to clean up the ocean, by removing tons of plastic and using it to make those little bracelets that they sell, but how much can one organization really accomplish in a world that's drowning in plastic? I'm not sure.

 

[steve_bank]

Millions and millions of condoms every day. It all adds up,.

 

[ralfy]

For petrochemicals in general, they are used for fertilizer, implants such as heart valves, stormwater barriers, household and industrial cleaning agents, refrigerants, artificial joints, much of pharmaceuticals, emergency gear, ink, gels, medical equipment (including syringes and tubing), thermal insulation, elastomers, water resistantance, electronics, absorbents, fibers for clothing and rope, PVC and other construction materials, paper, renewable energy components, and more.

All of these applications are necessary for industrial civilization, on which a large human population rests. In fact, the same population grew threefold as infant mortality rates dropped and life expectancy rates increased due to, among other things, artificial fertilizer combined with mechanized agriculture which increased food production significantly, sanitation systems and other infrastructure (from road networks to electric grids) made possible through significant inputs of oil as fuel and petrochemicals for mining, manufacturing, and supply chains spanning dozens of countries and thousands of km. That is why much of basic needs, from clothes strengthened with synthetic fibers to almost all pharmaceuticals to construction materials to processed food to transport systems that ship all of these, electrical, water, and gas systems (including equipment and various components) are dependent on plastics, petrochemicals, and fossil fuels used throughout the process and by end users.

 

[southernhybrid]

Millions and millions of condoms every day. It all adds up,.

I know. I thought of a lot of other things that I didn't put on that list. It's pretty hopeless.

 

[TSwizzle]

I don't think it's that easy to get rid of plastic. Plastic bags are a tiny part of the problem. {snip} I'm sure people who use cloth grocery bags are well meaning, but if you think that's doing much to help reduce single use plastic, I'm sorry, but it's not.

In the grand scheme of things, me using cloth bags probably doesn't do much, I know that. But every little helps at the micro level. We have less litter on the streets and in the parks I'm told. Plastic water bottles is another thing. Our household very rarely use them now, preferring reusable metal water bottles. I think they are quite trendy now.

I have to respect the young, energetic men that started the movement to clean up the ocean, by removing tons of plastic and using it to make those little bracelets that they sell, but how much can one organization really accomplish in a world that's drowning in plastic? I'm not sure.

I think the focus should be stopping the plastic getting into the ocean in the first place. Dispose of the trash properly. I think (I could be wrong) China is one of the worst offenders.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I don't think it's that easy to get rid of plastic.

No one argued it would be.

Plastic bags are a tiny part of the problem.

Nor the only one mentioned. What is up with the plastic strawmen itt?

Here's a list of things that come in plastic.

And here are several lists of better alternatives that won't significantly contribute to our species' distinction:

25 cheap and easy replacements for plastic in your home and kitchen

100 Steps to a Plastic-Free Life

Eat your food, and the package too

Have Your Cake and Eat the Wrapper, Too

What You Can Do to Fight Plastic Pollution

21 Ways to Reduce Plastic Use in Your Home. That one in particular addresses:

Liquid dish soap [which you don't need regardless]

Laundry detergent and fabric softener

Shampoo

Conditioner and other hair products

And in regard to:

Most of the things that come in containers use plastic. I bought two pens last week. They were in packages that contained plastic, plus the pens were plastic.

Nail clippers, and nail files usually come in packages that contain plastic.

There are many pens that do not and last much longer. Nail clippers and nail files don't need to come in plastic at all. The only reason they do is to help prevent shoplifting, believe it or not.

OTC and Rx. medications come in plastic containers

Rx don't need to (just bring in your own bell jars). OTC is definitely a huge polluter and they need to address that problem.

As to the rest on your list and any others, the POINT is that very few if any of the things you listed either need to be wrapped in plastic or need to even be purchased at all (such as the deodorants/toothpasts/body lotions/lubes/shampoo/liquid soaps etc can ALL be easily--and far more cheaply--made yourself).

The reason we don't? Convenience. We're too fucking lazy (or spoiled/privileged) to take the time. And our collective sloth is choking us to death.

As the 2019 National Geographic piece I linked to earlier confirms:

Product packaging generates more plastic waste than any other industry. In Europe it accounts for 59 percent of all plastic waste by weight. In the United States that is likely closer to 65 percent, experts say. The global packaging market is a $700-billion-a-year industry and growing at 5.6 percent per year. Plastics account for one-third of this, making packaging the largest single market for U.S. plastics.

So, from 2015 (the date of the data from all of that utterly pointless derail bullshit from ralfy) it's grown from a little over a third to 65%.

But again, the point isn't a binary. It's NOT about either we get rid of EVERYTHING PLASTIC or we do nothing.

We target what we don't need and what we can do without or with alternatives; we look for better ways to create recyclable materials (and make sure consumers do their work as well in making sure recycling is properly conducted/cleaned/partitioned/etc); we rethink our transportation and distribution chains so that we return to producing and delivering locally. Like the greatest ponzi scheme--Amazon--is now doing by opening 3,000 brick and mortar stores to open by 2021. They'll just be without cashiers. Full circle AND workers continue to get screwed. Fancy that.

Anyway and once again, we obviously need certain things and don't need others. The ones we don't need, we eliminate. The ones we do, we don't, but we still look for ways to make those products longer-lasting and/or more environmentally sustainable, one way or another.

It's not rocket surgery.

If everyone in the Western world followed any of the simple steps outlined in just the links I provided above, we'd reduce or eliminate hundreds of millions of metric tons of landfill waste--and along with it, all of the toxins now killing us slowly--within ONE generation, but even if it's only 5% per generation, that's still worth doing.

This whole whataboutism of ralfy's reminds me of the gun control argument. If we can't stop ALL killings, then nothing should be done. That's nonsense.

We need to simply do what we can first and foremost and then keep paring away at the problem so that that mountain of metric tons becomes a more manageable, less deadly hill.

There obviously isn't a huge problem with billions of artificial hearts being tossed into the oceans every week so there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to even mention them.

 

[ralfy]

If climatologists and geologists are right, then tipping points for irreversible effects of climate change and limits to growth are close. In order to avoid them, those in the middle class will have to not only avoid products ranging from disposable utensils to condoms but cut down their resource and energy consumption by at least 75 pct. That's equivalent to less than two global hectares in ecological footprint, or something like living in a house only around 100 sq m in size with six other people, using only around five appliances (probably one electric fan, one stove, and three lights) with two-thirds of electricity powered through solar and other means, two-thirds of one's food grown or acquired locally with only two meals containing meat or seafood a week, traveling no more than 10 km from one's place, etc. Just avoiding disposable utensils or changing light bulbs won't be enough, and arguing that at least one is trying won't allow one to avoid those tipping points.

And that's for the current global population. As it continues to grow to 9 to 11 billion, then the ecological footprint per capita has to be even smaller than what was just described. And since the effects of the problems mentioned earlier will lead to less resource availability, then a drop in footprint is inevitable. Wars, fragile JIT systems which allow for only a few days' worth of food, fuel, medicine, and other needs per town or city, increased vectors for the spread of disease, etc., will quicken a drop in economic output.

Given that, one will have to realize that the question won't be whether or not one can live without plastic but when.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

one will have to realize that the question won't be whether or not one can live without plastic but when.

So you, once again, agree with me that we need to get rid of what we can get rid of and work to find alternatives and/or better approaches to what we can't?

Or are you, as I suspect, thinly veiling an argument to maintain the status quo, based on the "it's too late, so fuck it, just throw away the razors and keep using all the plastic bags you want" approach?

It's a simple question and not answerable with "it's moot," or the like, because it goes to your intent.

 

[TSwizzle]

A bugbear of mine is that when I replenish IT equipment (printers, CPU, monitors) they always come with a power cord. When are manufacturers going to give us the option to order equipment without these cords ? Even in my small company I must have accumulated thousands of these things.

 

[Fentoine Lum]

Millions and millions of condoms every day. It all adds up,.

I know. I thought of a lot of other things that I didn't put on that list. It's pretty hopeless.

The notion that we might have a choice in this is pretty hopeless given how we've constructed this society, and how we have accepted that.

 

[Fentoine Lum]

one will have to realize that the question won't be whether or not one can live without plastic but when.

So you, once again, agree with me that we need to get rid of what we can get rid of and work to find alternatives and/or better approaches to what we can't?

Or are you, as I suspect, thinly veiling an argument to maintain the status quo, based on the "it's too late, so fuck it, just throw away the razors and keep using all the plastic bags you want" approach?

It's a simple question and not answerable with "it's moot," or the like, because it goes to your intent.

So you, once again, agree with me that we need to get rid of what we can get rid of and work to find alternatives and/or better approaches to what we can't?

Only insofar as that can be folded into the all encompassing mandate of profit margin growth to infinity for the substantial people, which is kinda how we got "here", isn't it.

 

[nolongtalk]

I can't based on the fact that some of my favorite products come in plastic even though that's a shame. Emergencee, whey protein, water bottles.... etc

It's bad I know and I wish they'd change their packaging to something more environmentally friendly, but it is literally something I need to have with me everyday !

 

[southernhybrid]

I can't based on the fact that some of my favorite products come in plastic even though that's a shame. Emergencee, whey protein, water bottles.... etc

It's bad I know and I wish they'd change their packaging to something more environmentally friendly, but it is literally something I need to have with me everyday !

I can't either and that was actually the point of my thread. Hindsight is always 20/20. Nobody knew what havoc our usage of plastics would have on the world. The problem is that old habits are very hard to break. Imo, government and industry would be needed if we are ever going to decrease our usage of single use plastics.

I'm old enough to remember when berries came in little cardboard containers, but now even berries come in plastic containers. My husband and I were discussing how mild and soft drinks were only available in glass when were were kids. You took the glass bottles back to the store when they were empty. Even milk came in glass containers and the milkman who delivered the milk to your doorstep, would pick up the empty bottles so they could be reused. Humans very rarely know how their habits will impact the world many years down the line.

There are some good things that can be done with recycled plastics, but this isn't being done in many places. There is even a manufacturing plant in my small city that makes plastics. How does that get changed. How do you get manufacturers to use biodegradable containers etc.? There is a type of plastic that breaks down but it's not being widely used.

 

[lpetrich]

I cannot agree with the anti-plastic sentiments that some people have asserted.

Plastic wrapping for food is a good way to keep it sanitary. Clear plastic wrapping is also good for revealing what the food item is.

I agree that if one wants to avoid making lots of garbage, one should indeed try to do so, and that there are ways to do so. Like have one's own metal straws. Banning straws is silly. Making them optional is much better.


Currently, most plastic is made from crude oil. But there is an alternative: synthetic-fuel technology. Its biggest success in recent years is synthetic motor oil. Though it is more expensive than crude-oil motor oil, it often performs much better. Its success is due to its economics: one doesn't need much of it, and its superior performance.

Here is how to make synfuels. One starts by making hydrogen. It is currently done by mixing natural gas and water and heating them with catalysts. One gets hydrogen, carbon monoxide, and carbon dioxide. But renewable energy has the problem that most forms of it are most conveniently delivered as electricity. This covers the whole spectrum: hydroelectric, tides, waves, wind, photovoltaic, concentrated solar, geothermal, ...

The only exception that I know of is concentrated solar energy for industrial process heat, and that is still experimental.

But there is a way to make synfuels with electricity. Electrolysis.

2H2O + electricity -> 2H2 + O2

Hydrogen is rather difficult to store and transport, so George Bush II's "hydrogen economy" is a non-starter.

An alternative is ammonia, and it can also be made by electrolysis:

6H2O + 2N2 -> 4NH3 + 3O2

Ammonia is currently made industrially with the Haber-Bosch process:

3H2 + N2 -> 2NH3

One can then half-burn it to make nitric acid: NH3 + 2O2 -> H2O + HNO3

Combining ammonia and nitric acid gives ammonium nitrate, a common kind of fertilizer. So one can make nitrogen fertilizer with renewable energy.

 

[lpetrich]

Once one gets one's hydrogen, the next step is the Fischer-Tropsch reaction.

CO2, H2 -> H2O, CxHy, CxHyOz

One can make hydrocarbons, like gasoline or diesel-fuel ones, and also oxyhydrocarbons, like methanol.

The CO2 one can get from the air, making this process carbon-neutral.

Thus, one gets synfuel power-to-gas and power-to-liquids.

One not only gets synfuels, but also plastics feedstocks. Thus, one can have petrochemical plastics made with all renewable energy.

 

[southernhybrid]

I agree with what you've posted, Loren, even if I don't understand all of the chemistry behind the process. I have read that biodegradable plastics are being manufactured on a very small basis. I just hope that the biodegradable plastics will replace the type of plastics that we currently use. It will take a big effort from government and industry to make this change. That's the problem imo.

And, there are things that can be made from recycled plastics, like the plastic bricks that are being used in parts of Africa to replace older school building that are falling apart. The plastic brick schools are sturdier and cooler, compared to the older buildings that were mad of mud. So, maybe there is hope.

 

[TSwizzle]

An interesting partnership from Ford and McDonald's;

Ford is making headlamp housings that use discarded coffee chaff from McDonald’s. Coffee chaff, the husk of the bean that comes off during roasting, usually gets turned into garden mulch or charcoal — or thrown away. When heated and mixed with plastic and other additives, coffee chaff can be formed into pellets and then various other shapes. Ford is planning to use a chaff composite for interior car components and under the hood. As a result, the car parts will be 20% lighter — better for fuel efficiency — and provide the company with up to 25% energy savings during the molding of the parts. The first auto component to be produced using the chaff will be headlamp housings.

CNN

There isn't any detail about the process or development of this technology but I thought I heard on the radio it was developed in Canada. What's that all aboot, eh ?