Covid-19 miscellany

[Metaphor]

But they won't. We've already discussed this.

No, we haven't discussed it. You've asserted it. I know people who have had COVID, and isolated. Astonishing!

If they should, and they won't, this means we need to make them or you are not really saying they should.

I know what I'm saying, and I did not say I did not want to make them. In fact I already explained multiple times that Australia does make them.

Also, you don't understand what a moral 'should' is.

There is no "should" here without enforcement. We have depleted the population of "will'.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

the ones it can catch, but there's no way to catch those who simply ignore your kind requests, which is the entire remainder of the unvaccinated population at this point.

This REQUIRES either testing or vaccination to be compulsory

That doesn't even make surface level sense. How can 'people should isolate when they are infectious' entail'people should be forced to be vaccinated'?

But you don't get caught shirking unless you volunteer yourself for a test. Which you can also shirk.

Even if this were true, which it is not, so? Again, I know you appear to associate with people who would never obey the law if they could get away with it, but that doesn't apply to most people in society.

No cop no stop. The fence you erect to protect society against such behavior is a low hedge that anyone can step over, and for which everyone whom we are discussing doesn't give a shit about a low hedge in the first place.

You are proposing that unvaccinated people would deliberately spread COVID if they have it. You have no evidence of that and in fact I know an unvaccinated person who got COVID and isolated himself when he did.

 

[Metaphor]

The ONLY time there is any actual "greater risk" is if transmissivity is HIGHER during asymptomatic periods, or asymptomatic periods are longer, and even then only if actual overall transmission is higher from that population.

It is not.

1*1 < x*y where (x>1 && y >1).

You should just stop.

Both start out asymptomatically transmissive, with unvaccinated persons this happens within hours, and one gets worse and one gets better.

And this isn't even getting into the psychology of the fact that people getting vaccines are also again more likely to mask and more likely to be conscientious of their symptoms and actually self-quarantine.

I said it was about asymptomatic COVID. Not the asymptomatic period. There are people who will never get symptoms at all, and that is more likely to happen to vaccinated people with COVID than unvaccinated people with COVID.

 

[Metaphor]

Two doses plus booster are effective against omicron.

It's astonishing you believe you've refuted something I've said. You've refuted something you imagined I said.

Omicron isn't the only variant still circulating.

Omicron replaced delta within days in the United States

The omicron variant dethroned delta in the U.S. at record speed | Science News

It took the delta coronavirus variant eight weeks to make up more than 50 percent of new U.S. COVID-19 infections, estimates show. It took omicron two.

www.sciencenews.org

Recent estimates from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention suggest that omicron may have extinguished the delta variant’s spread in the United States by February 5, though it’s possible that the analysis wasn’t broad enough to catch any lurking delta variants. The numbers can also change over time as officials analyze more data.

Omicron is COVID for the time being.

Will omicron wipe out delta forever?

What one variant's takeover means for the pandemic's future.

www.livescience.com

Increasingly, it looks like omicron's takeover from delta is assured — and that delta is unlikely to resurface in a meaningful way, even after omicron has burned through the population. In many states, omicron now makes up 99% or more of all coronavirus infections, according to an analysis by Trevor Bedford, a biostatistician and biologist at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle.

 

[Metaphor]

We, as a society, could be well past this stage. Past masking requirements. Past talking about vaccine mandates. Past all this crap, had everyone behaved in a rational fashion. Starting even before C19 had jumped to humans. Much less the insanity afterwards.

You could have been 'past' COVID in December 2019??

Yes. Just like every driver on the road is a threat. But the drivers who choose sobriety and vehicle maintenance and defensive driving and such are making choices that hugely reduce the threat. So they get treated differently by society and the government than people who choose differently.

Being unvaccinated is not the same as having COVID.

It's brought up the distinction between being "free to..." and "free from...". Completely different kinds of freedom. I want to be free from nanny state mandates and also free from plague rattery. But I'm being forced to choose which freedoms I'm more willing to demand because ignorant people refuse to see the reality of this situation.
Tom

America's COVID outcome could have been different in many ways, but I do not believe you could have been 'past' all of it by now, because no country in the world is 'past' it, including countries like NZ under Führer Ardern. COVID was policy on the run for the entire world. Remember Pelosi going to Chinatown? Not a mask or social distance in sight!

 

[Metaphor]

I am defending the right of people to not have medical procedures forced on them against their will.

So we should let people who have attemted to suicide themselves just die?

Medical emergencies are an exception. Even then trauma surgeons try to inform somebody of what they intend to do.

However, I do believe in euthanasia, and that 'do not resuscitate' signs should be respected. Do you?

 

[Toni]

Two doses plus booster are effective against omicron.

It's astonishing you believe you've refuted something I've said. You've refuted something you imagined I said.

Omicron isn't the only variant still circulating.

Omicron replaced delta within days in the United States

The omicron variant dethroned delta in the U.S. at record speed | Science News

It took the delta coronavirus variant eight weeks to make up more than 50 percent of new U.S. COVID-19 infections, estimates show. It took omicron two.

www.sciencenews.org

Recent estimates from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention suggest that omicron may have extinguished the delta variant’s spread in the United States by February 5, though it’s possible that the analysis wasn’t broad enough to catch any lurking delta variants. The numbers can also change over time as officials analyze more data.

Omicron is COVID for the time being.

Will omicron wipe out delta forever?

What one variant's takeover means for the pandemic's future.

www.livescience.com

Increasingly, it looks like omicron's takeover from delta is assured — and that delta is unlikely to resurface in a meaningful way, even after omicron has burned through the population. In many states, omicron now makes up 99% or more of all coronavirus infections, according to an analysis by Trevor Bedford, a biostatistician and biologist at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle.

Not quite what your links say.

 

[Toni]

We, as a society, could be well past this stage. Past masking requirements. Past talking about vaccine mandates. Past all this crap, had everyone behaved in a rational fashion. Starting even before C19 had jumped to humans. Much less the insanity afterwards.

You could have been 'past' COVID in December 2019??

Yes. Just like every driver on the road is a threat. But the drivers who choose sobriety and vehicle maintenance and defensive driving and such are making choices that hugely reduce the threat. So they get treated differently by society and the government than people who choose differently.

Being unvaccinated is not the same as having COVID.

It's brought up the distinction between being "free to..." and "free from...". Completely different kinds of freedom. I want to be free from nanny state mandates and also free from plague rattery. But I'm being forced to choose which freedoms I'm more willing to demand because ignorant people refuse to see the reality of this situation.
Tom

America's COVID outcome could have been different in many ways, but I do not believe you could have been 'past' all of it by now, because no country in the world is 'past' it, including countries like NZ under Führer Ardern. COVID was policy on the run for the entire world. Remember Pelosi going to Chinatown? Not a mask or social distance in sight!

The US is not the only hotbed of disinformation. That disinformation Devi monster world wide has dramatically proline the pandemic and has undermined confidence in governments, medical science and most aspects of society. Almost as though that were the plan all along.

 

[Metaphor]

Two doses plus booster are effective against omicron.

It's astonishing you believe you've refuted something I've said. You've refuted something you imagined I said.

Omicron isn't the only variant still circulating.

Omicron replaced delta within days in the United States

The omicron variant dethroned delta in the U.S. at record speed | Science News

It took the delta coronavirus variant eight weeks to make up more than 50 percent of new U.S. COVID-19 infections, estimates show. It took omicron two.

www.sciencenews.org

Recent estimates from the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention suggest that omicron may have extinguished the delta variant’s spread in the United States by February 5, though it’s possible that the analysis wasn’t broad enough to catch any lurking delta variants. The numbers can also change over time as officials analyze more data.

Omicron is COVID for the time being.

Will omicron wipe out delta forever?

What one variant's takeover means for the pandemic's future.

www.livescience.com

Increasingly, it looks like omicron's takeover from delta is assured — and that delta is unlikely to resurface in a meaningful way, even after omicron has burned through the population. In many states, omicron now makes up 99% or more of all coronavirus infections, according to an analysis by Trevor Bedford, a biostatistician and biologist at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Center in Seattle.

Not quite what your links say.

I quoted what the link says.

Anyway, I'm not here to convince you of something multiple sources agree on. If you want delta to keep going, that's weird but different strokes for different folks.

 

[Metaphor]

We, as a society, could be well past this stage. Past masking requirements. Past talking about vaccine mandates. Past all this crap, had everyone behaved in a rational fashion. Starting even before C19 had jumped to humans. Much less the insanity afterwards.

You could have been 'past' COVID in December 2019??

Yes. Just like every driver on the road is a threat. But the drivers who choose sobriety and vehicle maintenance and defensive driving and such are making choices that hugely reduce the threat. So they get treated differently by society and the government than people who choose differently.

Being unvaccinated is not the same as having COVID.

It's brought up the distinction between being "free to..." and "free from...". Completely different kinds of freedom. I want to be free from nanny state mandates and also free from plague rattery. But I'm being forced to choose which freedoms I'm more willing to demand because ignorant people refuse to see the reality of this situation.
Tom

America's COVID outcome could have been different in many ways, but I do not believe you could have been 'past' all of it by now, because no country in the world is 'past' it, including countries like NZ under Führer Ardern. COVID was policy on the run for the entire world. Remember Pelosi going to Chinatown? Not a mask or social distance in sight!

The US is not the only hotbed of disinformation. That disinformation Devi monster world wide has dramatically proline the pandemic and has undermined confidence in governments, medical science and most aspects of society. Almost as though that were the plan all along.

Oy vey and you have the hide to mock the conspiracy theories of anti-vaxxers.

 

[Jarhyn]

We, as a society, could be well past this stage. Past masking requirements. Past talking about vaccine mandates. Past all this crap, had everyone behaved in a rational fashion. Starting even before C19 had jumped to humans. Much less the insanity afterwards.

You could have been 'past' COVID in December 2019??

Yes. Just like every driver on the road is a threat. But the drivers who choose sobriety and vehicle maintenance and defensive driving and such are making choices that hugely reduce the threat. So they get treated differently by society and the government than people who choose differently.

Being unvaccinated is not the same as having COVID.

It's brought up the distinction between being "free to..." and "free from...". Completely different kinds of freedom. I want to be free from nanny state mandates and also free from plague rattery. But I'm being forced to choose which freedoms I'm more willing to demand because ignorant people refuse to see the reality of this situation.
Tom

America's COVID outcome could have been different in many ways, but I do not believe you could have been 'past' all of it by now, because no country in the world is 'past' it, including countries like NZ under Führer Ardern. COVID was policy on the run for the entire world. Remember Pelosi going to Chinatown? Not a mask or social distance in sight!

The US is not the only hotbed of disinformation. That disinformation Devi monster world wide has dramatically proline the pandemic and has undermined confidence in governments, medical science and most aspects of society. Almost as though that were the plan all along.

Oy vey and you have the hide to mock the conspiracy theories of anti-vaxxers.

There is no need for "conspiracy".

I mean you would be nuts to have to not think at least some subset of evil fucked up people might be capable of working together, but they by no means need to for individuals to see a ripe opportunity here to be evil and fucked up and latch onto it like exposed skin in leech infested waters

There's a difference between encouraging individuality and encouraging the world to burn.

You seemingly would pursue the latter:

You have the hide to defend the conspiracy theories of anti-vaxxers, by targeting for mocking those who mock them, oh defender of the automatic martyrs.

 

[ZiprHead]

I am defending the right of people to not have medical procedures forced on them against their will.

So we should let people who have attemted to suicide themselves just die?

Medical emergencies are an exception. Even then trauma surgeons try to inform somebody of what they intend to do.

And if the patient says "No, I want to die." even though they have no underlying medical issues. Then what?

What if they were not conscious? Clearly they made their wishes known when they tried to commit suicide.

However, I do believe in euthanasia, and that 'do not resuscitate' signs should be respected. Do you?

Yes, I do.

 

[Metaphor]

You have the hide to defend the conspiracy theories of anti-vaxxers, by targeting for mocking those who mock them, oh defender of the automatic martyrs.

Non. That is an idiotic accusation. Defending the right of people not to have medical procedures performed on them against their will is neither defense nor approval of their beliefs, but affirmation of their humanity.

 

[Metaphor]

I am defending the right of people to not have medical procedures forced on them against their will.

So we should let people who have attemted to suicide themselves just die?

Medical emergencies are an exception. Even then trauma surgeons try to inform somebody of what they intend to do.

And if the patient says "No, I want to die." even though they have no underlying medical issues. Then what?

Well, then what? Shouldn't they be respected? It is not a crime to withhold medical treatment at the patient's request. How have you determined they have no underlying medical issues?

And, would you perform an unconsented medical procedure on somebody solely for the benefit of other people?*

EDIT: *Obviously you would if you believe in compulsory vaccines for adults against their will.

What if they were not conscious? Clearly they made their wishes known when they tried to commit suicide.

They didn't though. Most suicide attempts fail, mostly because they are not real attempts. They are cries for help.

However, I do believe in euthanasia, and that 'do not resuscitate' signs should be respected. Do you?

Yes, I do.

Good. Then you appear to have the foundations of respect for what people do with their own bodies, including not vaccinating them.

 

[Toni]

Insisting that human beings have a basic duty to not inflict or prolong suffering on the rest of humanity is also recognizing and actually affording them more respect than you seem willing to do.

People have the right to their ignorant beliefs but they do not have the right to kill other people in service to those ignorant beliefs.

 

[Metaphor]

Insisting that human beings have a basic duty to not inflict or prolong suffering on the rest of humanity is also recognizing and actually affording them more respect than you seem willing to do.

What eye-bleeding nonsense, Toni.

People have the right to their ignorant beliefs but they do not have the right to kill other people in service to those ignorant beliefs.

I will not engage this issue on your false terms.

 

[laughing dog]

I believe it is the triumph of optimism over hope to try have a rational discussion with someone who refers to the Prime Minister of New Zealand as "Fuhrer".

 

[ZiprHead]

I am defending the right of people to not have medical procedures forced on them against their will.

So we should let people who have attemted to suicide themselves just die?

Medical emergencies are an exception. Even then trauma surgeons try to inform somebody of what they intend to do.

And if the patient says "No, I want to die." even though they have no underlying medical issues. Then what?

Well, then what? Shouldn't they be respected? It is not a crime to withhold medical treatment at the patient's request. How have you determined they have no underlying medical issues?

Because it's the scenario I chose. Drs. in the USA would perform whatever medical procedure was needed to save the person's life. Do you disagree with them?

And, would you perform an unconsented medical procedure on somebody solely for the benefit of other people?*

For the sole benefit of others? No. But the vaccine is benefits the receiver. Just because he's too stupid, brainwashed, or politically motivated to realize it doesn't change that.

What if they were not conscious? Clearly they made their wishes known when they tried to commit suicide.
They didn't though. Most suicide attempts fail, mostly because they are not real attempts. They are cries for help.

They fail mostly due to medical intervention. Do they not still possess the right to do to their bodies as they see fit.

However, I do believe in euthanasia, and that 'do not resuscitate' signs should be respected. Do you?

Yes, I do.

Good. Then you appear to have the foundations of respect for what people do with their own bodies, including not vaccinating them.

It's the vaccine deniers who do not respect the bodies of other people. Just as the person who wants to commit suicide has deluded himself that he doesn't want to remain living the vaccine denier has deluded himself that he can go around spreading plague with no consequences.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You have the hide to defend the conspiracy theories of anti-vaxxers, by targeting for mocking those who mock them, oh defender of the automatic martyrs.

Non. That is an idiotic accusation. Defending the right of people not to have medical procedures performed on them against their will is neither defense nor approval of their beliefs, but affirmation of their humanity.

Yup, this exact same argument can be used to justify ending mandated vaccinations for all sorts of diseases.

 

[ZiprHead]

You have the hide to defend the conspiracy theories of anti-vaxxers, by targeting for mocking those who mock them, oh defender of the automatic martyrs.

Non. That is an idiotic accusation. Defending the right of people not to have medical procedures performed on them against their will is neither defense nor approval of their beliefs, but affirmation of their humanity.

They're the ones denying the humanity of those that are around them.

 

[TSwizzle]

Had a trip to the supermarket earlier. Despite the indoor mask mandate still in place, went in the store without a mask, did my shopping, checked out and went on my merry way. Nobody said anything. One other guy in the store was sans mask, we let on to each other with a nod. It was a good day.